Wyoming Valley CC, Wilkes Barre, PA (Tillinghast) & others in "Coal Country"

[Steve_ Shaffer]

If you are a member of The Shivas Irons Society as I am or The Tillinghast Society, a golf outing is being held at Tillie's Wyoming Valley(1925) on September 23, 2004. John Bednarz will speak at 1030am on Tillie's travels in northeastern PA and golf will follow at noon. Afterwards, dinner,etc will follow. Cost is $125 for members or $150 for non members with $25 applied to a 1 year membership at SIS. A registration form can be downloaded at www.shivas.org.

I'd like to meet some of you there so GCA can be represented at this event. These events are always  an educational and fun day.

Steve

[TEPaul]

Interesting little Tillie course that Wyoming Valley G.C. #2, I think it is, is somewhere between weird and high quirk and that super dropshot par 3 somewhere in the middle of the front nine is a hole that anyone who plays the course won't forget anytime soon.

I spent a day officiating something like a state am qualifier there a few years ago and I'd know the course a whole lot better than I do if I didn't have to spent practically the entire day on #2---what a pace of play problem that hole was--those contestants didn't have the vaguest idea what to do on the tee shot on that hole!!  

There's little doubt in my mind that #2 was an extremely "late in the day" creation of Tillie where he was probably waving his arms too much while trying to simultaneously drain the last ounce out of his flask and he must have fallen off his shooting stick and hurt himself!

[JBergan]

Interesting little Tillie course that Wyoming Valley G.C. #2, I think it is, is somewhere between weird and high quirk and that super dropshot par 3 somewhere in the middle of the front nine is a hole that anyone who plays the course won't forget anytime soon.

I spent a day officiating something like a state am qualifier there a few years ago and I'd know the course a whole lot better than I do if I didn't have to spent practically the entire day on #2---what a pace of play problem that hole was--those contestants didn't have the vaguest idea what to do on the tee shot on that hole!!  

There's little doubt in my mind that #2 was an extremely "late in the day" creation of Tillie where he was probably waving his arms too much while trying to simultaneously drain the last ounce out of his flask and he must have fallen off his shooting stick and hurt himself!

#2 is tricky hole to figure out.  You have to decide how close you want to play your tee shot to the left side (assuming you hit it far enough to get past the corner of the hard dogleg).  Playing down the right side off the tee is safer, but you'll have a fairly long second shot over the valley which fronts the green.

#7 is the drop shot par 3.  It's been a few years since I've played there, but I think it plays about 30 yards less than the scorecard yardage.  I heard that back in the 60's, a woman had two holes in one in one week on #7.

FYI, the 8th and 9th greens have been rebuilt/expanded within the last few years to allow for more pin placements.

[Mike_Trenham]

Valley CC in Clarkes Summit PA is another Tilly creation worthy of a look.  Very interesting greens.

[JBergan]

Valley CC in Clarkes Summit PA is another Tilly creation worthy of a look.  Very interesting greens.

Isn't Valley CCin Conyngham?  You can see it going south on I-81 by the Hampton Inn at the Hazleton exit.

[Willie_Dow]

Funny that I just read Frank Hannigan's May 1974 article in the "Golf Journal" listing Valley Country Club, Conyngham, PA as one of the courses "dug up from a variety of sources, but lacks absolute verification - in some cases to their very existance."

Strangely Frank didn't mention Beaver Tail ?

Willie

[JBergan]

Another Tille course not too far from Wyoming Valley is Fox Hill, in Exeter.  I'd be interested in learning how he ended up in the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton area.  My guess is that a few coal barons had the funds to build golf courses and attract a top architect.  I have a book on the history of WVCC around here somewhere...

[TEPaul]

jbergan:

Fox Hill is nominally a Tillinghast course but a lot has been changed there over the years.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I'm bringing up this thread to see if there is any interest for those who may have been on vacation when it was originally posted.

Steve

[Joe Andriole]

I grew up at Valley CC, Conyngham.  I believe that at one time there was a 9 hole Tillinghast course on the site but that gave way to a cramped 18 hole course on 95 acres by Cornish.  The greens are small and quite interesting and probably the only redeeming feature of the course.  There are 5 par 3's -- 3 on the back nine-all downhill, in the same direction and of similar length.  The course sits on the lower side of the mountain and all putts "break" off the mountain.  Fox Hill in Exeter has always been home to a good number of quality players.  The course has had frequent modifications, sits on rolling countryside and has some nice green contouring.  In northeastern Pennsylvanis -- coal country- the pre eminent layout has always been CC of Scranton -- an old Travis design with fantastic green complexes.  This is a real hidden gem.  There is a bunch of Tillinghast or possibly Tillinghast in the area including Valley, Wyoming Valley, Fox Hill, and Ross? at Irem Temple, Schulkil Haven et al.  The courses in this region are short, hilly and generally have small interesting greens.  As a youngster I berated most of these courses as "goat tracks" compared to the championship layouts of metro Philly and Pittsburgh.  There is however a good measure of quirk and a number of terrific green complexes.  There is not a lot of strategy as these courses are narrow and the landing areas further narrowed by the prevailing slope.

[Jim Sweeney]

As luck would have it, I'll be travelling west from Boston in the 22nd and will probably be staying in the Wilkes-Barre area overnight...alas, I must press on in the morning and cannot join you. I look forward to my first GCA gathering - official or un - when the time is opportune.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here is my report on the outing today at Wyoming  Valley CC:

What a beautiful day for golf! There were about 15 of us who attended- mostly members of the Shivas Irons Society.
Wyoming Valley was established in 1896. Tillinghast was hired to do the course in 1924 and the course opened on July 4, 1925. In 1935, the clubhouse was destroyed by fire and the club decided to rebuild it in a different location and changed the original routing. Over the years, work has been done on the course, the most recent of which was redoing the bunkers with Rick Wolfe of the Tillinghast Society as a consultant. The bunkers do not have the typical Tillie flashing as found at Winged Foot, for example. The course is short- 6178 from the blues- par 71, 71.2/130. The greens are small and sloped but had not fully recovered from aerification and were not as fast as usual. As noted, the holes of interest are the short dogleg left 2nd, the drop shot par3 7th, the consecutive par5s 11&12 with the 11th featuring diaganol cross bunkering and the 17th, a sort of double dogleg par4 of 407y.
Tillie did a lot of work in the area in the 1920s probably as a result of his Shawnee course. This was a thriving economic time- coal and railroads produced great wealth. He ventured further west in PA to do Williamsport and Sunnehanna.
Although not one his most famous courses, WVCC was fun to play and historically interesting.

Steve

[JNagle]

JBergen,

I would disagree with your statement about Valley C.C. - Yes, it is a tight little site, but it is 18 holes of pure Tillinghast.  I would recommend to anyone attending the Tournament to check out Valley.  It is one exit south on 81 from the 80/81 interchange.  There is great bunkering, flowing topography and severly undulating greens.  The course may be short, however it is a joy to play.  The course is a great one to study when relating overall distance, or lack thereof to difficulty of greens.  The green countours, shapes and slopes make up for the short, sportiness of the course.  I have been trying for years to get Rick W. and Bob T. there to check the place out.

[JBergan]

JBergen,

I would disagree with your statement about Valley C.C. - Yes, it is a tight little site, but it is 18 holes of pure Tillinghast.  I would recommend to anyone attending the Tournament to check out Valley.  It is one exit south on 81 from the 80/81 interchange.  There is great bunkering, flowing topography and severly undulating greens.  The course may be short, however it is a joy to play.  The course is a great one to study when relating overall distance, or lack thereof to difficulty of greens.  The green countours, shapes and slopes make up for the short, sportiness of the course.  I have been trying for years to get Rick W. and Bob T. there to check the place out.

'Twasn't me who commeneted on Valley CC.  I've only seen it from high above, passing by on 81.

[Mike_Trenham]

The course is short- 6178 from the blues- par 71, 71.2/130.

71.2 is a very high course rating for a course of this length.  Are there any holes a good player can use a driver?

[Willie_Dow]

Jim

My remarks about Valley came from Hannigan's article.  His list of Tillie's courses were based on some assumptions compiled by his references.

Sorry to miss WVCC.  I would have enjoyed telling the Beaver Tail story.

Willie

[mark chalfant]

Any more thoughts on these Tillly courses in coal country  ?

[mike_malone]

 Our 2008 travel team for GAP played there , Riverton, and Manufacturers. I thought that was a wonderful combination of Tillinghast, Ross, and Flynn. It was the least of those three courses. I just can't get over seeing the originally designed possibilities covered up by trees. Riverton impressed the most versus expectations because of its recent work.

[Kyle Harris]

Any more thoughts on these Tillly courses in coal country  ?

Plenty Mark,

I'll post more later tonight but want to keep this thread active.

[Mark McKeever]

I had the pleasure of playing out at Wyoming Valley over the weekend and I must say that the golf course was very enjoyable and even more interesting.  A lot of the bunkers are dug out and positioned so that you cannot see them until you walk up and find your ball in the sand.  A lot of the greens had more movement than i would have thought from the fairway also.  It had a lot of great features and it gave me the feel of playing a golf course in New England.  WV had some great elevation changes and the holes that are on the flatter valley have a lot of neat features such as clusters of bunkers in the middle of the fairways and good use of rock outcroppings.  Also it had one of the better drop shot holes I have played in a long time.  I took a few pictures that I will try to post up later tonight.

Mark

[Terry Lavin]

Mark,

Please do post those photos.  This is intriguing.

[Mike Cirba]

Mark,

I'll look forward to the pics, as well.

Wyoming Valley is a hoot, and I think you'd very much enjoy Valley CC and Fox Hill CC up there, as well.

Haven't played Irem Temple yet so I can't comment, but the others I think anyone in this group would have fun at, even if they may want to bring a chainsaw to some of them.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

In the meantime, while we are awaiting Mark's pictures, the website has a good history:

www.wyomingvalleycountryclub.com

[Mark McKeever]

This may take a while, but I will gradually get these up.  First hole opens up with a par 5.  Its a cool tee shot with the box up very close to a stone wall by the clubhouse.  Almost a claustrophobic feel hitting your first tee shot up the hill.  Tee shot looks easy, but you don't notice two fairway bunkers cut into the side of the hill.  (a recurring theme here I liked)  Photo is of the third shot from about 100 yds out.  Unfortunately they had some bad fertilizer poison some parts of the fairways of the first 9 holes.  Aside from that, the course was in excellent condition.

[Mark McKeever]

Second hole is a cool dogleg left.  You have to get it to the corner or else you have no look at all.  Green falls off on the front and back and its perched behind a cool rock outcropping.  Small green too..