[Mark Brown]

Over rated:

Pebble Beach: too many mediocre interior holes
 
Spyglass: 7 holes ain't enough

Atlantic, Rees Jones

Cassique, Kiawah, Watson

Old Tabby Links, Hilton Head, Palmer/Seay

Maidstone: No.33 -- too many forgettable holes

Baltusrol-Lower: boring

East Lake: doesn't belong in top 100 just because it was Bobby Jones home course

Chechessee Creek, Hilton Head, Coore/Crenshaw


Under rated:

Pine Barrens, World Woods, FL -- Fazio's best course (assuming greens in good shape) very strategic risk-reward

Valhalla -- a lot of good holes

Colleton River, Dye Course: a lot of fun and variety. Front nine goes through grand live oaks, back nine is open links-style on the River.

Belfair-West, Hilton Head, Fazio -- much better than Old Tabby Links

Kahkwa Club, Erie,PA: Donald Ross

Royal New Kent, Mike Strantz: difficult, but front nine is outstanding and back nine is good (although 18th is out of place). He's too creative to leave off the list -- Tobacco Road, near Pinehurst is loads of fun in the spirit of some of the quirky courses across the pond.

Linville GC: NC mountains, Donald Ross


*Must Plays: (off the beaten path)
 
Wolf Run, Smyers, Indianapolis,

Musgrove Mill, SC,

Pete Dye GC, WVA,

Prairie Dunes

[A_Clay_Man]

Over rated:

Pebble Beach: too many mediocre interior holesNot really too many, but clearly there's more to a great golf course than just a collection of 18 great holes. Isn't there?
 
Spyglass: 7 holes ain't enoughOnce again you seem to overlook most of the genius at Spyglass, that being the slope deceptions all over that canvas, not just the coast holes  


Pine Barrens, World Woods, FL -- Fazio's best course (assuming greens in good shape) very strategic risk-rewardYour comments about Spyglass and this one, seem incongruent. And how does any one day's conditions affect the architectural analysis?

Mark- I don't intend to sound anything but inquisitive, so please don't read any emotion into my response. Perhaps you could back-up all your opinions in this thread with what, and why, you thing what you think?

[Dennis_Harwood]

Over rated:

Pebble Beach: too many mediocre interior holes --Which are the interior holes? And which of those not "one the cliff" are mediocre?
 
Spyglass: 7 holes ain't enough-- Which 7 are those?

Atlantic, Rees Jones --Compared to the neighbors? or compared to what?

Cassique, Kiawah, Watson

Old Tabby Links, Hilton Head, Palmer/Seay

Maidstone: No.33 -- too many forgettable holes -- You may say a lot of things about Maidstone (personally its my favorite east coast everyday play course) but I don't think forgetable holes is one of them

Baltusrol-Lower: boring== describe boring.  You mean a lot of tough, straight-forward, no gimick holes in a row?

East Lake: doesn't belong in top 100 just because it was Bobby Jones home course-- No, that's right, there are a lot of other reasons.

Chechessee Creek, Hilton Head, Coore/Crenshaw


Under rated:

Pine Barrens, World Woods, FL -- Fazio's best course (assuming greens in good shape) very strategic risk-reward

Valhalla -- a lot of good holes

Colleton River, Dye Course: a lot of fun and variety. Front nine goes through grand live oaks, back nine is open links-style on the River.  Didn't you just describe Harbor Town? How would you compare it to Harbor Town.

Belfair-West, Hilton Head, Fazio -- much better than Old Tabby Links

Kahkwa Club, Erie,PA: Donald Ross

Royal New Kent, Mike Strantz: difficult, but front nine is outstanding and back nine is good (although 18th is out of place). He's too creative to leave off the list -- Tobacco Road, near Pinehurst is loads of fun in the spirit of some of the quirky courses across the pond.--Is "fun and quirky" the elements of a great course?  You would have loved some of Desmond Muirhead's later designs.

Linville GC: NC mountains, Donald Ross


*Must Plays: (off the beaten path)
 
Wolf Run, Smyers, Indianapolis,

Musgrove Mill, SC,

Pete Dye GC, WVA,

Prairie Dunes

Like Adam, only asking with a few editorial comments.

[Mark Brown]

Adam,
My intention in submitting this topic was to start a dialogue about what courses people like and don't like and why, so thank you for your reply. I don't have all the answers, but it's fun to banter back and forth

I tend to evaluate courses based on strategy, shotmaking requirements, memorability and the overall playing experience. Did I enjoy playing the course and did it make me think about how I to play every shot.

I also factor in the variety, balance and the flow of the course. I try not to over analyze a list of criteria, because I  think design is more an art than a science.

I like the current trend of creating a mixture of short and long par-threes and fours and risk/reward par-fives. Variety and creatvity are extremely important, and I believe that design is best done on site, rather than on a computer.

Pebble Beach has a spectacular setting and some excellent holes, but if it wasn't on the ocean we probabley wouldn't be talking about it. I don't think a great course is just a collection of great holes, but I think every hole should require both thought and execution.

I don't deny that the holes on the back nine of Spyglass are well designed, but I didn't think it had much variety or memorability and the holes seemed to play quite long.

Pine Barrens has tremendous variety and alternate routes of play depending on your skill level and penchant for risk-taking. I couldn't wait to see what was coming around the next corner, and the course revealed itself a little bit at a time. Every hole presented me with a new look and another challenge. It was simply a lot of fun, because it kept me on the edge of my seat.

In the past, they have had some problems with the grass on the putting surfaces, but I imagine they have rectified this situation. If the firmness and the speed of the greens aren't right it's very hard to judge a course fairly no matter how much you know and how hard you try. It affects a lot of the shotmaking.

I hope that answers most of your questions, because it's past my bedtime. All the best, Mark

[A_Clay_Man]

Mark _ I'm not sure when you golfed the peninsula, but Spy and Pebble both use to be better. The ill-conceived changes, at Pebble alone, still won't take away most of it's greatness. IMO that's the greens, (size and shape) their respective bunkering and all the forced carries. Even the 15h hole, the one hole that most think is the weakest hole, has value. I wonder how many people stand on the 15th tee and are positive they will make a three, yet leave with more. Similar to Pete Dye's description of the TOC's home hole. The 11th is another under-rated hole and requires all the elements you eloquently described above with shotmaking and strategy.

re WWPB; I've enjoyed my rounds there very much, however, I did find some repetition of look. Re the greens grass. The course recently fired their management company and hired a superintendent to care fro both courses. Given some time, I'm confident the conditions at WW will be much better than years past.

FYI- Most players come away from the peninsula and feel that Spy is their favorite. Personally, I attribute that to the look. Specifically, the look of the inward holes, reminds them of their regional home courses, having been cut out of the pine forest.

[Dan_Callahan]

I hate to admit it, but I really think Taconic is too high at #30. Don't get me wrong, it is one of my favoriite courses in New England. But much of that has to do with the history of the course and the wonderful location in the heart of Williamstown. It's hard top think of a better crisp Saturday in fall than a round of golf at Taconic and then watching the Williams College football team take on Amherst right next door.

Having said that, the course does have its shortcomings. The routing gets very tight in places, where you feel like you are hitting over the tee box of another hole. And the challenge of Taconic—the speed of the greens—is a little bit too one dimensional for me. I'd prefer there to be at least some difficulty/strategy off the tee. I think I would have a hard time putting it ahead of Pumpkin Ridge, Wild Horse, and a number of courses in the southeast.

[Mark Brown]

Over rated:

Pebble Beach: too many mediocre interior holes --Which are the interior holes? And which of those not "one the cliff" are mediocre?

Mediocre interior holes (in my humble opinion) 1,2,14,15

Spyglass: 7 holes ain't enough-- Which 7 are those? First 7

Atlantic, Rees Jones --Compared to the neighbors? or compared to what? Compared to the standard we rate on. A lot of repetition in the mounding that lines the holes and in the greensites -- small opening in front, drop off on both sides into bunkers. Unimaginative putting surfaces.

Cassique, Kiawah, Watson

Old Tabby Links, Hilton Head, Palmer/Seay

Maidstone: No.33 -- too many forgettable holes -- You may say a lot of things about Maidstone (personally its my favorite east coast everyday play course) but I don't think forgetable holes is one of them. -- I can' remember many of them.

Baltusrol-Lower: boring== describe boring.  You mean a lot of tough, straight-forward, no gimick holes in a row? Yes, lack of creativity in style of holes, little variety

East Lake: doesn't belong in top 100 just because it was Bobby Jones home course-- No, that's right, there are a lot of other reasons. There are few great holes -- it's another Rees Jones redesign.

Chechessee Creek, Hilton Head, Coore/Crenshaw


Under rated:

Pine Barrens, World Woods, FL -- Fazio's best course (assuming greens in good shape) very strategic risk-reward

Valhalla -- a lot of good holes

Colleton River, Dye Course: a lot of fun and variety. Front nine goes through grand live oaks, back nine is open links-style on the River.  Didn't you just describe Harbor Town? How would you compare it to Harbor Town.

Harbour Town is flat, small greens, low profile green surrounds and doesn't come out of the trees until No. 16. What makes the course good is the tee to green shot-making with the major hazard being the trees. They are totally different. Colleton River - Dye has a lot of variety in the shaping of the design features with considerable undulations and very imaginitive and challenging greensites. It comes out of the forest on the 9th hole and the back nine has a links-style and look, wide-open and breezy, although it's not a true links because you can't play bounce and roll on all of the holes.

Belfair-West, Hilton Head, Fazio -- much better than Old Tabby Links

Kahkwa Club, Erie,PA: Donald Ross

Royal New Kent, Mike Strantz: difficult, but front nine is outstanding and back nine is good (although 18th is out of place). He's too creative to leave off the list -- Tobacco Road, near Pinehurst is loads of fun in the spirit of some of the quirky courses across the pond.--Is "fun and quirky" the elements of a great course?  You would have loved some of Desmond Muirhead's later designs.

I hate Desmond Muirhead's recent designs. They have no place in golf. If you don't know what I mean by quirky Scottish holes, you've never been there. Go play Cruden Bay.

Linville GC: NC mountains, Donald Ross


*Must Plays: (off the beaten path)

Wolf Run, Smyers, Indianapolis,

Musgrove Mill, SC,

Pete Dye GC, WVA,

Prairie Dunes

[Mark Brown]

Quirky means the hole have character and imagination

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mark, I hate to become part of what is nothing more than the same mindless approach to creating discussion the media uses. I would like to think this site is better than bomb tossing.

[HamiltonBHearst]

I am interested in Shivas statement about holes that are impossible to make a bogey on.  What would be the characteristics?  distance?  hazards?  flat greens?

[George Pazin]

I'm kind of amazed you think PB #14 is mediocre. It strikes me as one of the most interesting green complexes around. Why do you think this hole is mediocre?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Brown,

I'd be interested to know how Caves Valley ranked higher then Pine Tree.

I don't think it's a close call, but I could be biased.

Maidstone..... forgettable holes ?
Were you out late the night before ?

Baltusrol Lower..... Boring
One look at the first four (4) holes tells you you missed the boat on evaluating the terrain, features and interesting design that is evident to even the most casual of observers, such as TEPaul.  It's become popular to bash Baltusrol, but the course remains interesting and quite a test, from any tee.

[pdrake]

Have you ever played Old Tabby at Spring Island???  If you have, you will realize it is one of the best low-country treats.......as good as Secession and Ford Plantation.

And the Maidstone and Baltusrol rates are harsh too........

[David Kelly]

I guess some people might think #14 at Pebble Beach is uninteresting because it is virtually unreachable in two but to me even with a wedge or 9-iron approach that green complex is amazing AND terrifying.

[Mark Brown]

1. I wasn't bomb throwing. I just thought it could generate an interesting group discusssion -- and help me and others to pick the best courses in areas we travel to.

Pebble: I think the 14th green is unreceptive, penal and next to impossible for high-handicappers. If someone built it today, I think it would be questioned

Baltusrol: A good test of golf but not an exciting site for a major, and I'd rather play the Upper Course (just as I'd rather play the East than the West at Winged Foot.

Spyglass: Again, not a bad course but I grew up in PA and have played enough tree-lined courses -- I just love the first 7.

Old Tabby Links: I've played it about 20 times. It's a beautiful site but there's only a handful of inspired holes. It doesn't require a good variety of shot-making. Crenshaw & Coore were supposed to design it but Arnie twisted his arm - Darn...
The 17th is a great par-three however.Courses I like better in greater Hilton Head area: Long Cove, Harbour Town, Colleton River - Dye & Nicklaus, Belfair East & West (Fazio), Melrose (Nicklaus - under-rated) and Haig Point (Rees Jones - although difficult) on Daufuskie Island.

Maidstone: It's a very good course but I would rather play Shinnecock, National, Garden City, Friar's Head first.

National (Canada) I'd love to play it, but if it was built in the 70s it had more influence from George than Tom.

[wsmorrison]

"Too many Flynns in Philadelphia all bunched the best too low in the ranking and the rest dragged too high?  There is a definite pecking order that separates the pack.  I know too many members of them so I am not going to point out the ones that lack and why."

Unless you explain in some detail, there is nothing in the above statements to warrant any consideration and therefore they remain useless.  You wouldn't offend anyone with a carefully constructed analysis with solid examples.  Let's hear it.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pebble: I think the 14th green is unreceptive, penal and next to impossible for high-handicappers. If someone built it today, I think it would be questioned   Disagree; This slippery slope, that this comment illustrates, is how we ended up where we ended up, architecturally speaking, in the drought following WWII. Either way, too subjective, or inaccurate objectivity?  The green is nowhere near as intimidating as it looks.

Spyglass: Again, not a bad course but I grew up in PA and have played enough tree-lined courses -- I just love the first 7. I can't let it slide any longer, You do mean the first 5, don't you? Which ignores #8's genius, #9 's #10's etc.

[Mike Hendren]

I remain fascinated by the comments on Pebble Beach.  The green complexes are ingenius and the holes, particularly the interior holes such as 2,3 and 4 -just to name a few of Shivas' slam dunk pars - are classical in their challenge, bunkering and lines.  The routing is outstanding.  How many architects would have missed the 7th hole altogether?  

Everybody loves the 7th at Sand Hills but dismisses the 4th at Pebble.  Why?

In short, it has everything the treehouse likes, but continues to get its nit picked.  In my limited travels it's the only 10 I've played.  

Am I way off base or just not fashionable?

Mike  

[David Kelly]

Pebble: I think the 14th green is unreceptive, penal and next to impossible for high-handicappers. If someone built it today, I think it would be questioned   Disagree; This slippery slope, that this comment illustrates, is how we ended up where we ended up, architecturally speaking, in the drought following WWII.

Adam,
I agree with your disagreeing.  This idea of hammering down anything that sticks out to make it more palatable to "today's golfer" bugs me.  They probably wouldn't build the 14th green like that today and that is one of the reasons why it is great.

There are a lot of classic golf holes out there that "they" wouldn't build today. Thats the problem.

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