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Matt_Ward

Best golf in the Plains ?
« on: August 09, 2004, 07:18:04 PM »
Be curious as to how those in the know view the following states and in which order they would rate their overall golf course quality ...

North Dakota
South Dakota
Nebraska
Iowa
Kansas

Please keep in mind it's not just the private side I am talking about. It's about the whole package.

Thanks ...

P.S. I will be making my 5th visit to the area right after the PGA and will be sampling a number of highly rated layouts.

Gene Greco

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Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2004, 08:04:06 PM »
For the same reason one would place New Jersey as the third most golf rich state due the trump card, Pine Valley, one would have to place Nebraska (Sand Hills) and Kansas (Prairie Dunes) as the leaders.
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

RJ_Daley

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Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2004, 09:22:57 PM »
Matt, why retrict it to a State border?  How about a highway corridor.  Hwy 83 70 miles east or west of the road from Lake Oahe to Lubbock... ;)

PS:  I hope you have Sutton Bay on your itineray if you haven't seen it.  You won't be disappointed, even if you go a couple hours out of your way.  
« Last Edit: August 09, 2004, 09:25:31 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Bock

Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2004, 12:17:56 AM »
I've been lurking this site for a short time and recently joined - this is my first post  ;D.  Being from Kansas City, my vote would have to be for the state of Kansas.  Best courses when thinking of the plains - none other than Prairie Dunes (Maxwell 1937).  Some lesser knowns, but quite good would be Southwind (Sechrest 1980) and Buffalo Dunes in Garden city - both underrated and Colbert Hills (Brauer, Colbert 2000) in Manhattan.  Other courses that you would not think of as "plains" courses, but residing in the state and all very good include Shadow Glen (Morrish, Weiskopf, Watson, 1989), Hallbrook (T Fazio 1988, remodel 2003), Kansas City CC (Tillinghast 1926), and Flint Hills National (T Fazio 1997).

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

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Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2004, 12:43:30 AM »
even if you go a couple hours out of your way.  

What do you mean EVEN if you go a couple hours out of your way.  You mean WHEN you go a couple hours out of your way.  Sutton Bay isnt a couple hours from anywhere on anyones way.  But as you said it is well worth any trip you have to undertake to get there.

Being from that area originally I would have to say from an overall aspect I would say KS, NE, IA, SD, and ND.  As much as it pains me to place SD that low I have to be honest.  Having Sand Hill atop the NE list of and by itself does not put NE over the top.

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Travis Ripley

Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2004, 03:56:01 AM »
i played in a junior tournament in Wichita at the Tallgrass Club: good golf course.  

Tony_Chapman

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Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2004, 09:10:08 AM »
I guess it would be taboo, if I didn't join in on this one!!  ;D

Looking at the Kansas roster, it would be hard to beat that. But I will just say that as a group in Nebraska we have a pretty good set.

#1 - You have to put Sand Hills at the top of any list.

#2 - Wild Horse is a no brainer, while most would say Bayside is not far behind.
 
#3 - Woodland Hills (Brauer) is one of 16 5-star courses listed in GD's Places to Play.

#4 - In Omaha, you have three courses by Langford and Moreau. Omaha CC (with a green remodel by Maxwell), Ironwood CC and Happy Hollow Club. Also at the military base in RTJ's Willow Lakes, which is very, very good. Also, Brauer's Champions Run hosts the Nationwide event, which was this past weekend.

#5 - Dye's course Firethorn in Lincoln is a great effort. Rod Whitman has built an additional nine that I have yet to play.

#6 - I would also throw into the mix these courses that have been ranked in Best New lists: Arbor Links (Palmer Design), Iron Horse (Bates) and Quarry Oaks (LaFoy).

For value, I would put any of our city courses in the big towns (Omaha and Lincoln) against anyone. You can play some really fun golf for $20 on the weekend.

That's my .02, but I still think Kansas might beat us w/ PD, Flint Hills, Colbert Hills, Buffalo Run, Wichita CC, Prairie Highlands...that list is pretty long.

Matt_Ward

Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2004, 09:46:19 AM »
What's interesting for me is how the quality of public golf in all of the states mentioned is making as much, if not more news, than with its private counterparts.

I've played Wild Horse and Links of ND at Red Mike, to name just two, and being from Tony Soprano land it's always a joy to stand on a tee box and not be so cluttered with all the trapping of "civilized" life when playing in that part of the country.

Dick:

I'll be at Sutton Bay during my upcoming visit and look forward to playing it. Ditto Colbert Hills in Manhattan, KS.

Evan Fleisher

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Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2004, 12:44:00 PM »
Turboe nailed it pretty good, but I might flip-flop KS and NE at the top, put IA in the middle and ND & SD at the bottom due to it's difficulty to travel to.

Being an Eastern Iowa boy now, I might put TPC Deere Run, Spirit Hollow, Bos Landen, The Harvester, and any of the Des Moines privates on your "short list" of places to see when traveling my fair state.

If you are going to be through here next week sometime, drop me a line and maybe we can get together, Matt!!!
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Tony_Chapman

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Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2004, 12:46:16 PM »
Evan - I hate to give you Bent Tree (Brauer) in Council Bluffs, but its all yours!! The course at the Amana Colonies seems to get decent reviews, but I have never been there. Also what about the ISU and UofI courses?

Evan Fleisher

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Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2004, 12:50:36 PM »
Tony, I have yet to get that far West in the state so I cannot comment.

As for Amana Colonies, it is a fun place to play, quite scenic, but nothing much else...kind of almost like a fun resort course where everything funnels back into play.

ISU's Veenker is a tough course and has some interesting old holes...I have yet to play Iowa's home course, maybe Doug Siebert could comment on that.
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Doug Siebert

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Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2004, 12:52:39 AM »
Evan,

Dunno what "Bos Landen" you played to think it is worthy of mention, but apparently it wasn't the same one that Brad Swanson and I played a couple years ago and roundly despised.  Probably would rate about a "2" on the Doak scale.  Poor routing, cart paths in all the wrong places, etc.

I'll agree with the rest of you what you said.  TPC Deere Run is in IL BTW, not IA, so regardless of anyone's feelings about it Iowa can't take credit or blame :)  Amana is a fun course, so long as you can hit it up in the air pretty well, because a lot of the time you are hitting off elevated tees to fairways in a valley and back up on high to the green.  Its nothing spectacular, but when the greens are firm and fast like when I played there a few weeks ago they are murder.  Had to be running at least 10.5, faster than I'd ever seen them before.  Sure adds some challenge there.  Like you say, a lot of the fairways are fairly narrow but funnel misses back into play -- but if you are wide of the funnel you are reloading, I've never got around that place without losing at least one ball.

The U of Iowa course, Finkbine, is my home course so I'm not sure I can comment on it objectively.  Its been regrassed with A4 bent on the greens and A1 on the fairways and tees last fall, and its still growing in but playing very well.  There's been a lot of rework over the past 10 years to correct the Robert Bruce Harris syndrome of putting bunkers well back from the greens to allow for the gang mowers.  The course suffers from a few (hundred) too many trees, every season a few more places where it is possible to miss the fairway get planted so its easy to stymie yourself but its not quite an impenetrable forest yet so there is often room for the heroic shot, if you are willing to accept the risk of Ben Wright's "dreaded other" should you fail.  Its good test for most players, though pros would eat it up since they can keep it between the trees and the greens are large and generally hold reasonably well due to the extremely sharp back to front slope on most greens.

One "hidden gem" you might want to check out if you are in the area, Evan, is Saddleback Ridge in Solon.  Its got quirk (6 par 3s and 6 par 5s, including a stretch of 6 in a row that aren't par 4 on the back nine) and a few fairly wild greens -- the 13th green is something to behold, three tiers, some sloping back to front, some side to side, some front to back, a generous false front, and well elevated up a hill at the end of a 565 yard par 5 that plays into the prevailing wind.  Its the only green I've four putted in as long as I can remember, and that includes trips to Scotland and Ireland.  The front is interesting but nothing too special, but the back nine is pretty cool, has a definite linksy feel with all the fescue and firm turf, especially when the wind is really blowing, which it usually is out there.  I keep intending to take some pictures of the place and post them to see what other RSGs think of it.
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Evan Fleisher

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Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2004, 09:02:07 AM »
Thanks for the update Doug!
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Matt_Ward

Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2004, 08:13:56 PM »
Doug:

How far is Saddleback Ridge from Des Moines?

Is it open now?

I'll put you on the spot but if you had to rate the top ten public courses in Iowa what would they be?

I'm at The Harvester next week and over at the new AP layout near Des Moines. Is my time there well spent?

Doug Siebert

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Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2004, 11:57:22 PM »
The Harvester is a must play.  Can't say for sure about the AP course since it is so new, but its supposed to be a big deal course they hope to host a senior open or publinx on down the road so its probably a good choice.  I do wonder if it will remain public when all the housing is sold -- though that may take a number of years since it is apparently a very large site laid out to maximize the number of homesites.

As I mentioned in private mail to you, Saddleback Ridge is just north of Iowa City, therefore about two hours west of Des Moines.  You'd be hard pressed to play at the Harvester and drive two hours to Saddleback and play 18, though it is possible if you got an early enough start.  Might be better if you could arrange it so were coming down I-80 with enough light left to at least play nine at Saddleback (I'm assuming you are driving, and coming to the Des Moines area from the east on I-80, which may not be a valid assumption)

Saddleback is probably as different as you can get from that Palmer course.  Saddleback is in rural Iowa, surrounded on two sides by cornfields (though its close enough to a growing town that housing is going up on one side)  On the 18th hole, a driveable dogleg left par 4 of 375 (well, driveable if you can carry it about 290) you are practically aiming over a silo if you take the line at the green.  When I've taken that line I can't help wondering what the sound of a duck hook hitting a silo sounds like, and figure I'll probably find out one of these days ;)  Its easily walkable if you are fit enough to walk up and down the "ridge" about seven times, and its less than $20 for 18 holes, and plays nicely firm and fast in a way most courses on the rich Iowa soil don't.  Probably about as different as you can get from the Palmer course, which probably doesn't play too firm or fast with all the water and bent grass fairways, and if it is walkable at all probably requires carts anyway.  Would definitely make a good contrast to be able to compare two newer Iowa public courses (Saddleback opened about 4-5 years ago, the second nine a couple years later) with totally different price ranges and styles.

As for the top ten public in Iowa, I won't touch that one with a ten foot pole.  I've probably only played half the candidates most people would put in there, and most people would probably disagree with my list if I put one together anyway -- I'd have Saddleback in there, but I'm sure a lot of people would think I'm nuts because its too easy (70.7/121 from the tips) or too quirky (6 3s and 6 5s, only two bunkers on the whole course) or doesn't have enough trees, water, heroic carries, $3 million clubhouse or whatever that The Harvester, Amana, Hunter's Ridge and the other consensus top 10 courses in Iowa have lots of.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2004, 12:50:56 AM by Doug Siebert »
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Evan Fleisher

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Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2004, 11:33:02 AM »
Matt,

Here is some info and pictures on the TC of Iowa course (Palmer) you are speaking of...

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=7819;start=msg151515#msg151515

BTW...I'd agree with Doug that The Harvester is a MUST PLAY.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2004, 11:34:01 AM by Evan_Fleisher »
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Matt_Ward

Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2004, 02:47:54 PM »
Evan / Doug:

I'm going to see if time permits me to at least stop by and walk the property at Saddleback Ridge. I will be playing Harvester and the new AP layout.

Thanks for the info and suggestions ...

Mark Brown

Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2004, 10:04:09 PM »
In addition to those mentioned:

Oak Tree -  Edmon,OK  (Dye)
Firethorn - Omaha, NE  (Dye)
Links of North Dakota at Red Mike (Kaye)
Karksten Creek - Stillwater,OK (Fazio)
Longaberger(?) Tulsa, OK? (Hills)

Craig Van Egmond

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Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2004, 08:19:53 AM »

Mark,

         Longaberger is in Ohio.  

A_Clay_Man

Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2004, 08:33:51 AM »
As for the top ten public in Iowa, I won't touch that one with a ten foot pole.  I've probably only played half the candidates most people would put in there, and most people would probably disagree with my list if I put one together anyway -- I'd have Saddleback in there, but I'm sure a lot of people would think I'm nuts because its too easy (70.7/121 from the tips) or too quirky (6 3s and 6 5s, only two bunkers on the whole course) or doesn't have enough trees, water, heroic carries, $3 million clubhouse or whatever that The Harvester, Amana, Hunter's Ridge and the other consensus top 10 courses in Iowa have lots of.

Doug- Most people? Screw most people! Thank g-d you aren't like most people. I love Saddleback just reading your account, thanx.

Doug Siebert

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Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2004, 12:56:13 AM »
I was thinking last winter I should take some pictures and do a posting on Saddleback for GCA since it is a bit different and quirky, and the Painswick lovefest showed me that GCAers have a soft spot for courses that dare to be a bit different.  I'm just not sure how well it'll work on camera, especially with me as the worst photographer in the world taking them, something even my snazzy little DSC-T1 probably can't make up for!  But I really will endeavor to do that before the end of the season so I can see what other GCAers think of it.  Too bad it doesn't have one of those websites with the snazzy "virtual tour" feature like some courses do, but it's usually the courses with the $3 million clubhouses that can afford that sort of thing...

At least I can encourage Evan as the nearest GCAer to me I'm aware of to make a trip down to Solon to give it a look sometime (and if you do, give me a call and I'll join you out there!)  They've made some great improvements this season, the gravel parking lot has been paved ;D
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Buck Wolter

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Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2004, 08:20:37 AM »
Matt-
If you get to Des Moines take a look at Waveland. Billed as the oldest Muni West of the Mississippi it's on some terrific ground and I believe is hidden gem material.

Sort of a poor man's Wakonda.

Buck
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Matt_Ward

Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2004, 09:43:25 AM »
Buck:

How far is Waveland from Wakonda -- drive time wise? Ditto from The Harvester?

Thanks ...

matt

P.S. If memory serves Waveland used to be rated among the top public courses when GD first rated public courses nationwide in a 1984 article by Frank Hannigan.

Buck Wolter

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Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2004, 10:23:59 AM »
Matt-
I seem to recall that Waveland was on that list as well back in the mid- 80's.

Waveland isn't much more than 15 minutes from Wakonda -- Wakonda's south of downtown near the Airport and Waveland is West of Downtown just before you hit West Des Moines. From Waveland to Harvester is probably 45 minutes I haven't played there but know the general location near Ames, I'd stop off in Ames to see Venkeer -- quite a bit of Perry Maxwell left from what I understand.

Des Moines Golf and Country is just West of Waveland about 10 miles as well. 36 holes done by Pete Dye in the late 60's where they played the US Senior a couple years ago, I've walked the course as a caddy but don't remeber much about it.

I thought Jeff Brauer built a course in Norwalk in the last couple years as well which isn't too far from DSM.

Pretty good group of courses but I doubt that they'd compete with Nebraska or Kansas. You can take commercial aviation into Des Moines though.

Buck
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Matt_Ward

Re:Best golf in the Plains ?
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2004, 10:31:05 AM »
Buck:

If time allows I hope to stop by Waveland. Do you have any max yardage for the course with slope and cr info?

If you have the time I will be at the Tournament Club of Iowa on 8/20 for a 2:00 PM tee time. Maybe you can come out and chat with me there. I may have an opening to play as well.