Is it necessary to see the green on the second shot of a reachable par five?

[Tommy Williamsen]

The 18th hole at my home club(Four Streams in Maryland) has caused quite a debate.  The layup area is visible but if you should go for the green you have to hit it over a knoll to a blind green.  There is a bunker and long grass to the right but to the left is a hill that will funnel a ball into a catch basin near the green where four is quite possible.

[Tyler Kearns]

Tommy,

Please give us a little history of your club. How old is it? Who designed it?

It really depends on the original concept behind the design. If it was to be played as a reachable par-5 then I think making the green blind is a silly mistake. However, if the original intention was for a true three-shotter, and modern technology has rendered the hole reachable, then I see much less reason for concern. It's not ideal, but hey, neither is the unencumbered encroach of technology on the game of golf. I would hate to see a good old hole altered because a blind shot is too much of an inconvience for the modern player.

Tyler Kearns.

[Dan King]

tommy Williamsen writes:
Is it necessary to see the green on the second shot of a reachable par five?

No.

It isn’t necessary to see any of your shots finish. You’ll see it eventually. Long live blindness!

Dan King

Golf is not a fair game, so why build a course fair?
 --Pete Dye

[JSlonis]

Tyler,

Four Streams was designed by Steve Smyers in collaboration with Nick Price.  Here is a link:

http://www.fourstreams.com

Tommy,

To answer your question....NO...it is definitely not necessary to see the green.  I have played Four Streams and I like the 18th hole just as it is.

[Tommy Williamsen]

The 18th was designed to be a three shot hole in 1998.  Recently I have even been able to give it a go from the next to the back tees.  I contend that the second shot is exciting and calls for imagination.  It is not easy to hit the green because of the lay of the land and you need a little luck.  But that is what I like about the game.  The tee shot is a downhill shot to a wide fairway.  There are bunkers left and right in the lay-up area.  If you go for the green you have to hit it over the bunkers on the left and hope for a good roll.  If the green is missed up and down is quite possible.  the lay-up area is about thirty feet hight than the gtreen so the geen is not visible froom more than 130 yarads away.  If the tee shot lands in the rough, jusst getting to the la-up area can be problematical, and you could be left with a blind third shot.

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy,

Nothing is absolutely necessary.  However, I don't like a blind shot unless I feel like I have a clear orientation to the green -- like if I hit it right over the top of that hill or that rock, I'm good.  If you're just playing to a general area and waiting for the bounce, I'm not sure I'd like that.

[Dale_McCallon]

Tommy,

Maybe I shouldn't reply to this, since a reachable par five is an oxymoron for myself--but it sounds like you have answered your own question.  You seem to like the hole and that is all that should matter.  I don't mind a blind shot on occasion, and it sounds like the architects have done a nice job of leaving players with a few options of recovery.  Now if you told me that you were hitting to a blind green surrounded by H20, then I would say no good.  But based on your description, the hole sounds good.

[LenBum]

No. I love a blind shot as long as there is something in the background. #3 at NGLA..................as long as you hit your tee shot up the right hand side you have the directional flag or the bell tower to guide you.

[Doug Siebert]

Why should it be necessary to see the green when trying to reach a par 5 in TWO?  I can perhaps understand (but don't agree with) the need to see the green for an approach on a par 4 or par 3, but who says you should get all the breaks when you are trying to get a leg up on par?

Ideally you can at least see the players leaving the green so you know when it is clear, so if its a safety issue I can understand it.  Other than that, tell the whiners at your club to go play Prestwick and then see if they complain about a blind second on a par 5...

[A_Clay_Man]

Aptos, has just a par 5. Perhaps the fourth hole (?) it's a straight away narrow par 5 that jutts sharp left in the last 40 yards. With the hillside left and pond right, sphincter tighting was brought to a new level. I believe Marion Hollins had an affection for this course. (?)

Tom Doak- On my one and only, around SFGC, I stood in the middle of the second fairway and played to the blind area to the left, just to see how good "this Tillie guy was". While it's a par 4 and the green was not blind, with my weakass fade I knew aiming for the green would be futile, for me. When my ball came to rest on the front apron, after sliding right off that invisible area, I found that "invisible" is more a function of the golfers ability to anticipate and read the land.

The case was not so on my trek around Apache's first hole. Having failed to reach in two, I was left with the blind shot from behind the big mound, right. I caught a glimpse of the hump on the green before It became blind. What I failed to notice was that the hump, in the green stopped, and the angle the ball would kick, would change if hit too far. You got me, because I treid to play the kick to the back left pin but my distance accuracy failed and I didn't get what I anticipated. What I found educational was, that it was totally up to you (and the shaper) that I didn't get the kick my nose was anticipating.
BTW that was my first Doak hole, ever. I keep coming back for more, so don't infer it was a turn-off.

[TEPaul]

Interesting question. Here's something on that subject that actually got done on a hole like that at my course, GMGC. It was on hole #7, a reachable "go/no go" par 5, redesigned in the 1930s by Perry Maxwell along the shot value lines of ANGC's #13.

Over the decades the hole was allowed to devolve through tree overgrowth (and other reasons) into sort of one dimensional playability (too few were tempted to logically go for the green in two!).

In our recent restoration project with architect Gil Hanse, Gil at first recommended cutting out more of the quarry (at the green-end) that largely guards a second shot to the green (and mimics the shot value of Rae's Creek). This idea strategically was obviously to make a second shot to the green more intense but the idea of cutting out more of the quarry  near the green made the committee nervous for fear of erosion and potential damage to the green.

At this point I asked Gil while standing at the optimal tee shot area if it would be more tempting to take down the near side of the quarry some thereby exposing the green to view more. Gil thought about that for a while and eventually said that if the hole was a long par 4 he might do that but since it was a short “go/no go” par 5 he thought it’d be better to maintain as much blindness of the green surface from that second shot area as possible!  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tommy,

I have a couple of par 5's out there that have a blind green, and a visible lay up area....

If you have a visible option, one where you don't have to "outdrive your headlights" so to speak, then a blind risk/reward shot is fine, IHMO.

[Mike_Trenham]

Today I played Three Little Bakers in Newark DE.  This course had 3 Par 5's where the green is blind or semi-blind all of which are very solid holes.

#7 is 504/478 yards.  This is the most blind of all of the par 5's.  Entire hole slopes from left to right, with a creek on the right.  The creek really is far from the action, but I've been in it before.  The second shot is almost a go ahead and hit it type shot, some trouble with the sidehill lies but little else.  The green is not large but has a lot of slope and is postioned in the side of the hill nicely.  While you can not see the pin on your second shot, you can see it on you travel from the 5th green to 6th tee, so you get a nice preview.

#9 is 512/480 yards.  Starts from an elevated tee with a drive down into the valley.  The green sits up the hill and to the left.  I would call this shot semi-blind, you can see the flag.  The perfect 2nd shot is a draw that starts at a large tree about 60 yards short of the green.  Push your second shot and you are behind this tree, over cook the draw and you can very well end up in a pond short and left of the green complex.  Again you get a preview of this green before you tee off as it is next to the practice green.

#18 is 524/484 yards.  Much like #9 it plays down hill then up hill, but the fairway in the landing area slopes severely left to right with a pond on the left.  This is the hardest second shot on any of these par 5's due to the slope.  A topped shot off this sidehill lie will not carry to the flat area before the green, leaving you with a 150-200 yard uphill and blind third shot.  From the 10th tee you can also see this hole location.

This brings me to a question, is a hole less blind if you get a chance to see the green earlier in the round so that you know what lies ahead?

I know this is the case for #7 at GMGC and for some reason I had never really thought of this hole as blind, maybe that is just further evidence I can't hit it out of my own shadow.

[TEPaul]

It's always a bonus---a routing bonus, if you will, if you can see the pin position on a green before you get to that hole if that green or pin is blind or somewhat blind while playing that hole. And of course you sort of feel like a fool if you forget to look!    

GMGC's #7 is that way---you walk right by the green while playing #4. PVGC's #17 is great that way too---all you have to do is step to the back of #11 tee and look right at it.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Been out of town for a few days.  Thanx for all the input!

[Gerry B]

Mid Ocean's 15th has a blind shot to the green over a mound. Does not really affect one's shot except  one must avoid the  local public transit buses that cross the fairway on a  road about 100 yards in front of the green. I hit one on the fly a few years ago.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I've said a number of times before, but I love blind shots, and
a reachable par 5 also qualifies.

Here's the 18th at Four Streams that Tommy mentioned:





564 from tips, 538 from next up.


Strantz' (controversial) Tot Hill Farm has 5 par 5's, all
reachable, and 2 have blind 2nd shots.  #8 from anywhere,
and #16 from right 2/3 of landing area (where I was, as creek
is all down left side).  

Approach is behind this hillock to green in distance, fronted by the same creek.


527 yard hole, and I had 215 blind to the green.  Went up to
top of hill, checked flag/green position and noticed creek up
front, picked out a line, and decided to go for it.  Hard 4,
flushed it, grabbed my clubs and quickly ran around hill with
anticipation of where by ball ended up, luckily in back center
of green (did two-putt).  Highlight of the day and long live
blind shots!  

On #8, I pushed 2nd shot into right-hand swale for very
tough chip to green (that's risk/reward for ya).