[Mike_Golden]

Frank_D,

I'm not taking issue with everyone's right to play wherever they want, including courses that have made this 'Avoid Like the Plague' list.

I also started another thread that is the corollary, that is, name courses that were surprisingly good.  So, if you were visiting an new area and wanted to play some golf, wouldn't it be great if there was a GCA reference to tell you, at least from one person's perspective, which are the really bad courses and which courses you might want to play even though they aren't well known?  

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

When I was living in St. Simons one summer I played a ?Oak Grove?  I think thats the name.  It was probably the worst incomplete place I had visited.  Just getting the golf cart to dodge all the torn up areas and holes along the property was a feat!  The place felt unfinished and we almost requested our money back.  Had some views along the coast so it could have probably been good???  Loads of water standing as if built below the water table or shaping was incomplete.

[peter_p]

SilverTip in Canmore, Alberta shouldn't be avoided if shooting with a camera is as important as shooting a good score. But it was a big disappointment for the C$135 green fees, cart included and essential. Starter raved about the large 3000-4000 sq ft greens, stressed the slope ratings 155/144/137, so I opted for the normal tees (5944 vs 6557) and felt like a professional when I had to lay up seven times from the tees.
The tenth may be in the running for worst hole. The five upper tees have been abandoned  because condominium built through the fairway was consistenly bombarded on the 150 foot drop shot. What was a double dogleg is now a nine iron, nine iron to a hidden, small, thin green. It was bad before, and bad now. A very difficult site, with large elevation changes and loooooong cart rides between holes.

[Mike_Young]

Gee, one of my courses made the list.....
OakGrove in Brunswick
It was a great piece of land and feel the routing was good.  Shapers were some of the best.  Drainage was to be coordinated with the developer of the subdivision. And it was not built below the water table. But somewhere the owner and the banking authorities had a problem. One went to jail and course was never finished as specified.  But I hear it has been improving as the new owner puts more into it.  
I think this was discussed with Mr. Stanfield a few years ago.
Oh well, just goes to show one never knows how something got to where it is.

[Mike_Golden]

Shivas, my friend:

Are you saying that with the only barrier to a menage a ocho (this is beginning to sound like Dodgeball) with the above being a round of golf in absolutely the worst place in the world  that you would have to think about it?  C'mon, buddy, be a man, that's what alcohol and drugs are made for

[Doug Wright]

Like my friend Tom H I can usually find a little redeeming value in any course, but I have to say I found none in TPC at Eagle Trace, an unfriendly Arthur Hills attempt at Penal GCA that, unfortunately, succeeded. If you like blind water hazards, be my guest...

All The Best,

 

[S. Huffstutler]

Worst I've ever played:

1. The Heathleands in Onekema, Mi.
2. Gran 'dEzza in Estero, Fl.

[Mark Brown]

Champions Gate, Orlando

By Greg Norman. Two courses. The International is supposed to be the best but it's awful. poor design and conditioning. The American course can't be much better.

International is supposed to be a links-style course and it has narrow fairways and lots of water(?) everywhere. Way too penal.

Norman is inconsistent with quality of design -- and hell bent on making every course low-profile, lining the fairways with sand and building stacked-sod bunkers next to greens that  at grade.

The result is you can't see where you're going and there's no depth perception, particularly from the tee (like Oldfield near Hilton Head) you can't tell how far away the fairway bunkers are. No variety or creatvity. He's got Australia overload.

[Ken Fry]

Gee, one of my courses made the list.....
OakGrove in Brunswick
It was a great piece of land and feel the routing was good.....Oh well, just goes to show one never knows how something got to where it is.

Mike,

I played in an event at Oak Grove back in 1996.  I believe that was the beginning of the "economic" issues.  The course had good variety and interesting movement to the holes.  The property had an interesting of variety along the back water and through the tree lined areas.  I do remember the conditioning was very rough.

When people drill Yale for the current course, neither Raynor or MacDonald get knocked for it.  That would certainly apply to Oak Grove.

[Tom Soileau]

I played such a bad golf course today in virtually every way it gave me the inspiration to start this thread.

The course, Aliso Viejo, in Orange County, is allegedly a Jack Nicklaus design-it has 3 nines (I played 2 of them, the Valley and Ridge), and, based on the 2 I played it has absolutely nothing going for it other than well conditioned greens with a number of false fronts.

So here are my reasons for placing Alisa Viejo on this list:
1.  Highly forgettable design with little or no shot values.  Only 6200 yards from the tips and plays even shorter.
2.  Carts only
3.  Greens fees ($90, although I paid $68 through an internet special) well in excess of what it's worth.
4.  Very, very slow pace of play (4 hours 45 minutes and we waited for 1 or 2 groups on virtually every hole after #2).
5.  Bad staff-a 'players assistant' drove up to us on about the 14th hole and told me to smile-I said, 'if I didn't have to wait 20 minutes to hit every shot maybe I would'-his response was 'you're lucky you're not on the Valley nine, it's slower than this', upon which I was ready to tear his eyes out but restrained myself and went 2 under for the last 6 holes, including 3 reasonable birdie putts I missed.
6.  Poorly maintained-the bunkers were pretty much mud from watering.

In spite of all of this I shot 75 including a really bad double bogie from 100 yards.

So guys, what are your nominations for this list?

Mike,

FYI, we have been asked to come back to Aliso Viejo and re-design the 27 holes into 18 holes.  The developer, against our advise, wanted us to fit the 27 holes on a piece of property that was not big enough for quality, safe golf.  Starting after the first of the year, we will demolish two-thirds of the course to accomodate the new holes.  Hopefully the new product will be more to your liking.

Tom

[Michael_Burrows]

The Bear Trace near Chattanooga, TN. On the fourth green you can see the nuclear power plant that is just on the other side of the river. Now thats a view! The course is poorly maintained and green fees are way to high. The two courses that are own by the city (Brown Arces and Brained) are better courses and Brown Arces is flooded half of the year.

[Mike_Golden]

Tom,

That's a good thing to hear and hopefully you can find 18 good holes on the property-in all honesty, of the 2 9's I call think of little that was worth savning.  Good luck with the project and I hope it goes well for you.

[Gerry B]

This may a case of the wrng place at the wrong time.

A couple of years ago in July -played Chicago Golf Club on a Saturday morning - stunning  / great / pure / peaceful  / great condition, etc. as it always is. Have to fly to New Orleans on business that afternoon. Schedule a round at English Turn for the next day -thinking it should be ok - after all they had hosted a PGA event for a number of years. Drive over in the late morning. Te weather was the usual July in New Orleans -hot and steamy. The course was perhaps in the worst shape of any course that I had ever played. Punched greens - and I mean holes the size of nickels, burnt out fairways,bare spots everywhere, little sand in the bunkers and to top it all off - a boring layout. Played the front nine and then walked off the course. Oysters, gumbo and beer  at the Acme in the French Quarter seemed like a much better proposition to spend the remainder of an already wasted Sunday afternoon.

[Gib_Papazian]

I've spoken my piece about two particularly egregious examples of putrid architecture in the San Jose area, so I'll leave those courses alone. That stated, if not for the lovely and charming redhead, I would gladly play golf over 9 miles of broken glass on my knees to have an evening with Nicole Kidman. Shivas, we both know you would also . . . . . don't forget who you are talkin' to    

Given that we could go on all day about 3rd tier courses that suck, I'd like to vector the discussion off to fairly famous courses to be avoided like the plague.

I nominate: Wentworth.

Obscene fees, mediocre conditions, brainless rough lines, rude marshals and a pro shop staff full of the most petulant, snide, anti-American, pseudo-Surrey snots ever assembled.

However, if Nicole Kidman was my caddy, I still might play.

[Mike_Golden]

Gib,

Please, stop holding back in order to be politically correct-how do you really feel about Wentworth ?

[Gib_Papazian]

Okay Mike, you want to know what I think?

I would rather snort liquid dogshit up my nose through a used straw  than peel off $180 to play there again.

We arranged for caddies, and the staff member with whom I booked the caddies told me they had (instead) been used for a corporate outing - and that we were "welcome to rent trolleys."

Oooops, only two left for our foursome.

The group in front was still in range when the starter marched up and demanded to know why we were holding up play . . . . I said the group in front was still in range, to which he snorted "I doubt it."

Everyone who knows me can attest to my Pavin-esque distance off the tee.

So, I whistled one with my driver and ran the ball through the group in front. To which the starter exclaimed "Well, if you knew you could reach them, why did you hit?"

Take all this and that cheesy faux castle they call a clubhouse and as far as I am concerned, they can take the Burma Road and shove it in their posterior.

Hmmmm, shall I call up one of my friends at Swinley or Sunningdale for a game, or put on a wetsuit and dive into the sewer of England's most pompous, obnoxious and poorly run CCFAD?

PS: The "range" was little more than cement pads with worn out carpet. Funny though, the corporate assholes hit on the adjacent grass area . . . . .

[Gib_Papazian]

And while we are on the subject, the golf course was a disappointment . . . . . . on every level.

There are 2,000 courses in America better than Wentworth. Troon was an exercise in bland architecture, punctuated by holes 7-11, which save it from being a "3" at best. All things considered, maybe a "6.5."

Wentworth in the best of conditions is a "6."  . . . . and I am being charitable.

All things being equal, if given the choice between Wentworth and Troon, I would play the Portland Course with the Lady Captain . . . . . . Monty's father is such a diquenohze that I wouldn't bother to have drink with him even if he was buying.

But I promise you he is far more welcoming than the cretins at Wentworth. They ought to make Nicole the starter. At least if the patrons are going to be bitch slapped, it would be by a gorgeous chick.

End of snotosity . . .

[Gerry B]

Gib:

You hit it right on the head re:Wentworth -most overrated ranked course and perhaps the rudest starter in the world - should have taken him to the nearest skeet range ....

I often wonder why anyone would bother playing there and put up with the abuse when you have 2 fine courses at both Sunningdale and Walton Heath up the road - not to mention other fine courses in the greater London area.  

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

Mike,

Not coming after your design, just like you said, a good piece of property. Unfortunately the owners and circumstances as you stated have IMHO led to a place of least desire.  And I have played a few places that have fallen by the wayside.  I hope the course is making a come back.....Had some nice property points for scenic holes.  Brunswick needs more quality daily fees since the island has alot of high dollar tracks.

Cliff

[Mike_Golden]

Gib,

That was much, much better-did that starter have a flask of single malt in his pocket or was he just born in Brooklyn ?

[Jeff Goldman]

Shivas,

Then get thee to Arboretum, even more than Tamahack.

[Gib_Papazian]

Shivas me lad,

Yes, your memory is correct. We were discussing matters of principle over margaritas at Hola. . . . oddly enough, that happens  to be the great Redanman's favorite hangout. Maybe we can time it to have a round at Olympic followed by dinner.

I'm going to have to call "bullshit" on the Nicole Kidman thing however. When it comes to talent hanging around the tavern, you have the peripheral vision of an NFL cornerback. . . . . .

I do not think you could resist. . . . . methinks Shivas has more libido than principles if it came down to a 5'11" knock-out in a halter top carrying your sticks. . . . .

As for avoidance of Eastern L.I. and Nor Cal, it must be tough to go play Shoreacres or the rest of the stellar tracks in the Chicago area. . . . .  

[Steve Pozaric]

In the St. Louis area

Deer Creek - target golf and you are the target
Sugar Creek - tight, hilly, poor design, goat track.
Paradise Valley - ok, maybe not the plague, but infectious illness.
Grand Marias - never played, but in the heart of East St. Louis - not a nice place.
Riverside - goat track - played earlier this year and figured out the grass needed to grow in after the winter, then realized for it to grow in, there needed to be grass there in the first place.
Pevely Farms - upper end Arthur Hills, again, maybe not the plague, but they need to blow up at least two holes and greens on 2 others and start again.  Very scenic, but not the best in golf.  Avoid due to other, better high end courses (e.g. Gateway National or Annbriar) that are comparably priced and MUCH better.

[Dale_McCallon]

I won't add a course to this ever growing list, but I will agree with Steve.  Anything in East St. Louis needs to be avoided--I can't believe there is even a golf course in this run down town.

[Mike_Golden]

Shivas,

So let me understand-you see a direct correlation between your golf game and the number of nights spent on the coach?
That's an interesting correlation since my handicap has dropped about 3 strokes since escaping from my marriage several years ago

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