[Patrick_Mucci]

After reading Matt Ward's thread on NJ golf courses, I found myself going over each golf course hole by hole, in the context of member play.

Which golf courses provide a strong test for their membership on the last two holes ?

And which highly rated golf courses have a weak finish ?

You can start with the NJ list and expand it to any golf course you wish.

Strong, last two holes, finishes:

Mountain Ridge
Hollywood
Ridgewood (west)
Baltusrol (upper)

Winged Foot (west)
Seminole

Does a par 3 as any one of the last two finishing holes weaken the finish and possibly the evaluation of the golf course ?

Do you feel that a par 3 as one of the two closing holes is a detriment when evaluating routing ?

Does your closing experience weight your evaluation of the golf course ?

[mike_malone]

 Pat,
    What specifically constitutes a "weak" or "strong" hole? Or, is it like pornography-"you know it when you see it"?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Pat-

Speaking from experience, Forsgate (Banks) has a very strong finish in their 17th and 18th holes; 17 is a Biarritz, 18 is a par 4 of about 425 yards which is no picnic either, due to the hole design.  

As for your par 3 question; yes, in some cases it does.  There are several courses (can't name names here, but figure it out) where I feel the 18th is a let down after playing #17.  

I do not feel it (presence of a par 3 as a 17th or 18th) would affect my thoughts on routing because, for many of the classic courses, the golf holes had to fall where they may upon the land, which is what makes some clubs with unique hole sequences so appealing.  

We may remember the closing holes, especially the 18th, more after finishing, as they are fresher in our mind, although as a player, I personally like courses have some ebb-and-flow character to it, in terms of difficulty of holes.  I certainly don't mind if the difficulty ratchets up a bit at the end.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Malone,

It's like obscenity, you should know it when you see it.

[John Foley]

Pat,

Does a course have to finish strong to be a considered a very good/great course?

I for one prefer the easier start and a finish that doesn't beat you up or become a brutal slog, but rather reminds you of the greatness you experienced.

Isn't the Old Course the perfect example of this?

[Bill Gayne]

I played Kiskiack Golf Course outside Williamsburg, Virginia yeasterday for the first time and the last two holes were a lot of fun. I don't know if fun and strong are the same thing but I liked it. The 17th was a long par three and 18 was a short risk/reward par five. What  made 18 interesting is that there were two routes. The first was all carry across water which left a mid iron into the green. The second route was to use the landing area on the right and play the hole as a par five. We had a bunch of different bets going so the decision on how to play was a combination of the players confidence to hit the shot that was needed to carry the water and his standing in the bets. The strategies of the bets would change based on what the players before you did of the tee.

[mike_malone]

 John Foley,
   
I have only seen #18 at TOC on TV,but it makes a good example for my question.Obviously #17 is considered "strong",because your approach shot is severely tested.

 But, some see #18 as weak because  shooting over par is unlikely for good players,but when one thinks birdie is their goal and they fail to convert with a wedge in their hands why is that weak?

     Is it then just a simple formula---long iron or wood=strong----short iron=weak?

     I don't think so

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Foley,

"Brutal" is extreme.

Please re-read my opening post, I posed this in the context of the membership.

[Gary_Nelson]

I'd say that Carnoustie fits the bill nicely.  The last 3 holes are strong.  16 is a long par 3.  17 and 18 are tough par 4's with forced carries over a burn.

[John Foley]

Mike,

Absolutley!

Mypoint why 18 @ TOC is such a great finishing hole is you really gotta miss badly to get a bad score. It won't detract from the overall experience.

I think a hole that must be a brutal par 4 where it's strugle for par is just not a good way to finish a round

[Mike Hendren]

I'd say that Carnoustie fits the bill nicely.  The last 3 holes are strong.  16 is a long par 3.  17 and 18 are tough par 4's with forced carries over a burn.

Gary,

I disagree.  The last SEVEN holes at Carnoustie are strong, particularly with sleet blown from a 30 mph wind out of the north.  

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

As much as I love Holston Hills, the last three holes there are weak, unless one gets above the hole on 16 and 18!

The 16th is a short, severely uphill dogleg right where the tee shot is virtually irrelevant.  The test is to keep the second below the hole, with no great penalty if you fail.  

The 17th and 18th are indifferent par fives, significantly inferior to the outstanding 5th and quirky 7th - the other 3-shotters.  

That said, I cannot imagine a better members course for the serious golfer.  I love Holston Hills.

MIke

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Patrick -

Other strong 17/18th's not previously mentioned that I enjoy playing:

Yale
Pacific Dunes
Winged Foot East
TPC at Sawgrass
Quail Hollow in Charlotte, NC (210 over water/490 - 4)
Country Club of Darien, CT (240/440)

"Does a par 3 as any one of the last two finishing holes weaken the finish and possibly the evaluation of the golf course ?"  

No, particularly not in match play.  See my prior post about the 18th as a par 3 finisher.  I like the fact that one swing from the same spot can determine a winner.  Strategy in either the lead-off or clean up position can dictate agressiveness, either playing from a lead or trying to close the gap.

"Do you feel that a par 3 as one of the two closing holes is a detriment when evaluating routing ?"  

The best par 3 site can certainly determine routing.  IMHO, architects offen focus more upon the par 3's in their designs as these holes can be judged with one-time straight view.  Without doglegs, blind tee shots, diagonal fairways, and other factors to play into designs as with in designing par 4's and 5's, I believe that many architects strive to make the par 3's more memorable (Just human nature, I'm not being critical here).  Thus, water, pushed up greens, more dramatic bunkering, bigger interior green variations all come into play.  The result, in general, is that even with a clean teed up ball, scores are higher on the 3's because more is expected of the player due to these challenges.  

We can look at Par 3 17th holes with water and drama as a method to help the architect put a stronge close to his statement/routing.  Thus, (And I am being exceptionally general, stereotypical, and probably unfair as a many exceptions exist to the following assertion), many 3's in the closing troika of holes help the routing get back to the clubhouse/starting point.  If the client is looking for a spectacular finish, a Par 3 on the 16th or 17th hole may necessitate a great deal of fill/shaping/excavation/water, etc. to get the desired effect.  I am not being negative here, but the 17th holes at: TPC Four Seasons in Dallas, TPC Sawgrass, Harbour Town, and countless others have been manufactured to get spectacular make or miss shots in the aspect of routing the 18th holes.  I am not saying that these are bad holes, I am merely trying to answer your routing question.  Also, many golfers enjoy the challenge that these holes present in trying to post a #.

"Does your closing experience weight your evaluation of the golf course ? "

Absolutely.  It is probably ingrained human nature to remember the immediate past, especially after 4 hours.  The 18th at TOC is memorable for more than just an effort at a closing birdie.  After so much expectation and experience at TOC (Especially for first-timers), the welcome back to town is a wonderful reception no matter how one has fared.  A birdie or a par on 18 is a shot at redemption or glory.

Just some ramblings.  Feel free to fire away.

JWK

[Mike Hendren]

Shivas,

I started to propose Beverly for that very reason.  15-17 are great golf holes in the truest sense and very "strong."  I happen to agree with 18 as well as one must find the fairway off the tee to be able to clear the rise 130 yards out with the second shot to leave a straight-forward pitch in - but the strength of the 18th might be debatable by some.  

After the vanilla 10th (though Ross gets credit in my book for routing the hole into the corner of the property) the back-nine at Beverly is among my favorites anywhere.  I remain grateful for the generousity of one of its members arranging me to play there a few years back.

Mike

[A_Clay_Man]

Does a par 3 as any one of the last two finishing holes weaken the finish and possibly the evaluation of the golf course ?

Do you feel that a par 3 as one of the two closing holes is a detriment when evaluating routing ?

Does your closing experience weight your evaluation of the golf course ?

Pat- In Order:
No! Par 3's are the savior (for the rest of us) of the long and down the middle crowd or technology opponents. So I don't see how they could be considered weak, in a general sense.

No! Just the opposite. I saw Antler Creek (8165 from the tips) yesterday and after switching the routing, the 17th will now be a par 3, complete with water hazard. It was exciting to speculate that this "test" would be a real sphincter tightener. Especially if one buys into Billy Andrade's contention that one of the big differences between Ams and pros is an ability to finish strong. Playwise

No! Definitely No. If one's experience is the basis for their evaluation of the golf course they are critiqueing from a subjective perspective based on their game. Pooppycoock!  

How well did you play at Spanish Bay?

[Steve Lapper]

A few others that come to mind:

Merion East
Prairie Dunes
Sand Hills
NGLA

All are strong finishing stretches and although a few of you might dispute the inclusion of Sand Hills and NGLA, I have just one reminder for you that is nearly undeniably a constant: WIND!

[Jerry Kluger]

Pat: This is a characteristic which is in some ways challenging the quality of the classic courses as they no longer have finishes which can compete with modern equipment.  What happens is courses like Somerset Hills and Plainfield are being questioned because the 18th hole is not an unreachable par 5 or a 460 yard par 4.  For that matter, what happens to the courses which have par 3 finishing holes, does that mean that they do not have a strong finish and does that mean that they are lesser courses.  I think that perhaps today's formula that the finish of a great course has to be extremely difficult is challenging the quality of some of the great classic courses and that is not what you nor I really have in mind.

[Bill Gayne]

I stiil have a preference for a course not to end on a par three unless the land really dictates that finish. The two reasons is that in settling a match I would want to see both players have to hit the most difficult club in the bag, driver, and there are greater opportunities for recovery/failure on a long four or short five. The hole should also have an alternative strategy besides driver available. However to chose this alternative strategy would require a demanding test of another part of the game.

The possible scenarios on a par three are 1. both players hit the green 2. one player hits green other misses. 3. Both players miss. All of these scenarios occur with a par four and there are a couple of other possible scenarios with a reachable par five. With par fours and fives you have the added dimension of a full drive to set up the three scenarios.  

[Matt_Ward]

Jerry, et al:

Let's be clear -- the finish at Somerset Hills is far from strong for members -- in fact, I believe, it's the weakest of the so-called top tier courses that are always rated among the best in the nation.

The 17th and 18th holes were weak EVEN BEFORE the improvements in equipment we see today.

P.S. I'm also not suggesting that the closing holes can only be considered demanding if they are simply long (e.g. 460+ par-4's, etc, etc).

Pat:

To answer you question -- I would say among Jersey courses you could also include Essex County and Forsgate / Banks for the finish they present -- and the diversity of the holes encountered during the closing stretch.

[Dan_Callahan]

The 18th at the Orchards (I think it's about 450 from the back tees) is the most deceptively challenging finishing hole I've played. Although the fairway is pretty wide, there is still lots of trouble off the tee, a very difficult uphill second shot, and a fast and sloping green. It's at or near the top of my list of favorite holes to finish a round—so many different scores are possible, forcing you to stay on your toes to your last shot.

[Mike Hendren]

The 17th and 18th at Victoria National are no pushovers (not to mention the 14, 15th and 16th to boot).  My masochistic host kept feeding me golf balls on 17 during a tin-cup moment of epic proportions after I first attempted to pick up.  A par at 18 and his goofy looking brim were my only salvation that day.  

Mike

[Chris Donahue]

While the length/difficulty of the closing holes clearly depends on the overall routing of the course, I for one prefer the 1st and 18th holes to be on the easier/simpler side.  As was mentioned previously, the Old Course at St. Andrews provides a perfect example.  The 1st hole feels like the start of a journey, a flat hole looking out on the tumbling terrain ahead.  And the 18th allows for a bit of reflection as you head back into town.

Several courses in the British Isles finish in this manner - Gullane #1/#2, Macrihanish come to mind.  A "soft landing" allows for aggressive rather than defensive play on the last, thus encouraging more matches won with birdies than bogies.  The key to such a routing lies in the elegance of the design.  Liverpool's and Portmarnock's 1st hole, while simple, have a great purity that elevates their status from dull to excellent.

Of course, there are plenty of examples of great courses with massive 1st and 18ths - Sand Hills being a prime example.  I just think that there is plenty of merit in a routing which uses the 1st and 18th holes to bring you into and out of the prime golfing terrain.  A "strong" finish, therefore, seems to be less about the length of the holes and more about how the holes complete the routing of the course.

[James Edwards]

Im a great fan of possibility golf down the last few holes.  What I mean by possibility is a number ranging from 2 to 7.  A course I have always thought finishes strong yet interesting is Oakmont.  17 just gives the player who is 1 down that opportunity to hit the green and make a 3 but is no pushover - Big Mouth awaits!  16 a long tough par 3 as it should be on one of the closing holes and 18 being a strong 4 is always in my book a great tournament golf finishing hole.  

[TEPaul]

"Does a par 3 as any one of the last two finishing holes weaken the finish and possibly the evaluation of the golf course?"

Pat:

No it does not if the par 3 happens to be a challenging one where many things can happen (many changes in fortune). There's little question that in a match play context an interesting and somewhat unpredictable hole is best in that 15-18 area! By potentially unpredicatable that can certainly mean either both straight challenging or psychologically complex in the way of options!

I certainly don't think Merion East suffers any with it's great par 3 17th hole and even GMGC's par 3 17th is long and challenging enough!

There's no doubt that a par 3 finishing hole seems sort of odd but nevertheless, if it does its job in both challenge and unpredictablilty it's probably just fine. A good example of this type of unpredicatable and challenging finishing par 3, even for the best in the world, is clearly East Lake's par 3 18th! Another good example is Misquamicutt's long and challenging uphill par 3 18th!

[Paul_Turner]

Some don't like the 18th to be a par 3.  But I can't see a par 3 at the 17th weakening a course.  Think of all the world class courses that have one:  Troon, Sand Hills, Kiawah, Swinley...

These days, nobody ever seems to build a long strong sequence of par 4s to finish a round.  Like say at Lytham or TOC.  Also nobody appears to build a short par 4 at the 17th!?  Like Pine Valley.

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