Pebble Beach and its lost status......

[Bob_Huntley]

I played Pebble today in the most glorious weather immaginable. The scenery as always, was stunning, the condition of the course outstanding, the green fast and firm. The greens seem to get smaller as I get older. Admittedly it was customer golf and I rode a cart. Dan King, forgive me. Would I want to play this way on a regular basis? No.

The cart path rule ruins any continuity of play, hit it right on #6 and you have a hundred yard trek to your ball and then back to drive the  cart up the hill because your cart-mate has forgotten all about it.

With caddies in the group in front and behind we still took five hours to play. To speed up play a new tee has been placed on top of the ridge at #8 depriving players the joy of the blind shot up the hill. It is still my favourite, but I now think that Pine Valley is a better test.  

I await a slap from a glove at any moment.

[A_Clay_Man]

No slap Bob. That trek back to the path on 6 is almost as bad as going straight up that hill. Not a bad idea to let the lunatics run the asylum on that hole and allow them off the path. Except for that pesky little cliff that has seen it's share of accidents.

I 've heard stories about when Pebble allowed carts off the path. The turf was virtually ruined with all the abuse.

Bob- You very much need to play in the owners tourney (it has a special name). On that day they just ask that you stay off the greens with the carts, but beyond that it's truely ANYWHERE.

[Dan Grossman]

I've played PB once in February 2001.

I teed off around 8:30am, carried my own bag while walking and played in less than 4 hours.  

I'll ask one question - is my experience the rule, or the exception?  It was the week before the ATT (they had the bleachers up) and the course was in GREAT shape.  

Other than the green fee ($325), I had zero complaints and I thought the course was out of this world.  

[A_Clay_Man]

Dan- Under your circumstances, it is normal. Normal being, most early tee times are not for the "fair weather" golfer and usually translate into fast rounds. The problem happens somewhere soon after when the air is slightly warmer and more of those who are asleep on the course awaken.

Was that your first time playing Pebble? and if so, was it worth it?

[Bill_McBride]

Bob, I feel your pain.  I grew up in Marin County and played PB several times as a teenager, paying $20 and carrying my bag.  No cart paths, maybe no carts.  The last time I played was in 1978.  No cart paths, carried, carts went everywhere.  I cannot imagine a "short tee" on #8.  I must be getting old, nothing is as good as it used to be!  I was just whining to David Tepper about Sonoma Golf Club, an old favorite, which is now private/resort and no longer open to the general public.  Pebble still is and will always be the most beautiful course in the world, just because of the oceanfront holes. (Cypress is certainly #2!).  But it's all being ruined by Mammon.  Boy am I a grouch.  

[Pete_Pittock]

Bob,
    The short tee on #8 deprives you of a memorable shot, but what new challenges are brought. Id guess you steer away from the cliff and have a shorter shot from  a less ideal angle. But its been 30 years and $300 ago.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am having trouble finding one thing the Eastwood Palmer group have done to improve Pebble. Infact it is one negative thing after another. I intentionally stopped playing there 2 years ago. I am very fortunate to have the opportunity to play other venues in the area. If they must have cart play then put the paths on both sides and cut the walks down. Stop doing things like ruining 1/3 of one of the great holes in golf. The best thing I hear is play and revenues are down. I am sure they are blaming it on the economy, but maybe eventually they will see the errors in their ways. We had the Tap room to ourself during a meal after the Kings Putter in March. There were also rooms available at the Lodge and Spanish Bay too. I have a friend going out in July and he could get rooms for then this week. I am going out in August and I assure you the restaurents will be half full at best. And no I will not even think of playing there. I love the place and the course with all my heart but will not give support to the shoddy management practices of this team.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pete- The forward tee on #8 does take away that blind tee shot but there really is no advantage to the left side. The fairway stops even with the edge of the cliff. So, the line is left side but the distance is close to 200. That leaves the best second shot in golf. Depending on the individual I would tell the player not to go up the hill and play from down below. I wouldn't want someone who has never been there and may never be back to miss one of the lifes great unknowns. Their first time driving on 8. For me it was confusing to the point of curiosity.

JohnnyB- I am curious if you could quantify what you perceive as the cypress' groups mis-managed practices.
I know you to be an expert on this matter but I am under the impression that the fault doesn't lie that far up the food chain. Please enlighten.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Adam, I felt the changes were at the top. I forget the partner's name who took over daily oversite of the project for the group. He is a highly visable man too. Anyway, there was significant marketing research done to quantify the potential cash flow and growth areas. The feeling was there was alot of room to increase fees for all parts of the enterprise. Naturally, this was in a period of tremendous economic expansion and growth in the Bay area. The management team shifted the balance away from a europeon boutique resort/golf  to more the modal you find in Palm Springs or Scotsdale. The balance was shifted to corporate outing and medium groups. This allowed for more use of the meeting facilities and a greater value per head on the property and allowed for all rooms to be presold in advance. We all know the rooms were already sold 6 month to a year out. Also across the board increases in fees. The focus on groups created a larger and larger % of corporate guests who have minimal golf skills and slowed down the pace of play to levels never seen before. It also changed the atmosphere of the courses and eating area away from the game. There has always been some of this but it was a major shift in clientel. I noticed it in who i met and was paired with to who was in the restaurents and bars with. The business in the rest and bars went way down too. There were emany more group functions. the maintenance is now done during the day and to the disruption of the golf experience. Before it was done from 3AM forward so almost all work was done before anyone got to that hole the next morning.
I feel like I at any nice Marriott resort or golf resort now. I knew I was at one of the premeier places in the world of golf before.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob Huntley,

It was my understanding that Pebble Beach went to curbed cart paths only after two gentlemen plunged to their death while riding a cart over the cliff on the 8th fairway under foggy conditions.

If that is true, I can understand cart path only thinking.

And, with the general public, carts have been known to in some unusual places.

I don't know the number of rounds per year, but If they are high, I can see carts doing considerable damage.

This is a "for profit" club, and I would imagine that cart revenues are substantial.

I also found that, even with caddies, unless you were the first off, or last off. where you could do what you wanted, that it was at least an unenjoyable 5+ hour round.

I guess it's a case of having to take the good with the bad.

The golf course is still spectacular.

[Bob_Huntley]

Tiger.

Your mention of the people rubber-necking on the Lodge grounds, reminds me of the butler in the movie 'A New Leaf.' You might remember his comment to Walter Matthau re the stroppy staff, " I am afraid sir, that they are terribly democratic."

We had a drink afterwards in the main lounge, the crowd looked as they had just gotten out of a rap video show.  

S.F.B.Morse would turn over in his grave.

ps.  One thing that boggled my mind was that a sleeve of
      Titleist ProV1's  goes for $20.00 plus sales tax!

[Paul_Turner]

By banning golf carts and their horrible paths, Pebble Beach could impact the worldwide the trend of less and less walking: it's just about the only course that could.

[Patrick_Mucci]

P_Turner,

That's not going to happen in the near future.

However, if the Bandon/Pacific Dunes complex were nearby, it might.

[A_Clay_Man]

John- Very intersting but not a surprise. Having not been a customer (too often) my perspective was from the guys who'd been going for more than a decade. Their view combined with yours leads me to belive that you are correct about the upper manangments responsibility.

Not only do they not pay their people a decent livable wage(most have to live far away) the service provided is lax, while simultaneously raising fees, for say a massage, and lowering what the masseuse gets paid for that work.

Capitalism at it's climax. Thank god they have that billion in unrealized real estate profit to protect.

Pat- There is no cart revenue at PB they throw it in.

I never heard of two tourista's meeting their end off the cliff. There's a famous failed suicide story (not a golfer) and a few mower horror stories, but I never heard yours.

 My personal fav is the one about the quarter mil $ diamond engagment ring snatched up by a seagull and deposited into the ocean. Some say it was fraud, who knows?

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Pebble is not so empty as you might imagine. A foursome cannot get a time for the months of September or October (as of today.) Therein lies the reason they can do what they want.

How they deal with the lost revenue at SB is beyond my comprehension. They were giving comped rounds to anyone who stayed at the Inn and played Pebble for a good portion of the spring.

Lastly, I have no problem with it being cart path only, because it encourages more people to walk. Also, two years ago when I last played two rounds the pace was 4:20 minutes (morning times, but not first thing.)

The $380 price tag seems not to discourage and until Pebble's rounds truly drop, changes will be slow to come.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

You can't be that naive.

Nothing is thrown in, it's all factored in and accounted for in determining cost.

[Bob_Huntley]

Pat.

I believe Adam meant that the $385.00 cost was all exclusive. I do know that he is NOT naive.

[DTaylor18]

I spent the week with my wife in Carmel three weeks ago and noticed several things.  First, i had a 8:50 tee time as a single at Spanish Bay (my wife likes to ride at some of the pretty courses).  We showed up at 8AM and were told that there was one foursome just teeing off, and other than that the course was empty and we could tee off when ready.  We passed the foursome on the third tee and palyed the round in about 2.5 hours, which included some pictures, etc as we had the whole course to ourself.  Granted, it was a monday, but that's not busy even for the local courses here locally.  

Second, regarding Pebble Beach, I called for a tee time for two six months in advance. There was only one opening in a three week period that started before 2:30.

We started at 10AM with a caddie and the round was almost five hours.  We didn't mind since it was our first time out there, but there was a huge emphasis on the 4:30 hour round, which is a major push for Pebble Beach Resorts.  They had a lot of marshals on the course and told our caddie to speed it  up several times.  The real reason for our slow play was the other twosome, which had a cart and wanted to know every yardage exactly and where to go, forcing the caddie to basically do double duty for free, which is something he said happens too often.  The cart definitely slowed play, as the group in front of us was well ahead.  The caddie said there wasa lot of discussion of requiring a forecaddie for people insisted on carts, to speed up play.

Nevertheless, the course was in great condition other than the terrible temporary green on #2. I only saw one worker on the course on the #7 green, and it was well worth the money, although i don't know how often i'd say that.

My only real complaint was that i left our stuff at the bag drop, and ther guy working there acidentally sent my buddys shoes to Spanish Bay, which weren't discovered/recovered until after the round, and basically initially accused us of misplacing them.  They gave him a too small back up pair, but he shot a great score for him,so his grumblings about his feet hurting were limited, but they were not very apologetic.

Finally, we there for a few days and never had any trouble getting in to any of the restaurants at either resort, and nothing seemed too crowded, but SPyglass and PEbble Beach definitely were very full courses.

[ed_getka]

The last time I was at Pebble I popped into the shop to see what the green free was at that time ($325). So, I then asked what was the fee for the Lodge guests and was told its the same. Lodge guests used to have a lower fee, which was a joke anyway. When I played back in the 90's it was $225, BUT if you were staying at the Lodge it was ONLY $165. At that time the cheapest room was $300-400. That was the only way to get a tee time back then was to be staying at one of their facilities.

Do locals in Del Monte forest still get a discount on green fees.

Patrick,
 If anyone went over the cliffs at PB, that is natural selection in action. I don't care how much fog there is, if I'm playing near an ocean I know its there. Besides if they could see their ball and golf I don't see how they could drive off the cliff.

[David Kelly]

I'll echo  DTaylor18's remarks about Pebble Beach.

I am playing Pebble Beach in July and I made my reservation in February yet I couldn't get a tee time before 1:30 for any of the four dates that I gave them.  The other thing is that if you want to play Pebble Beach on a Fri, Sat, or Sun. you have to stay at one of the properties for TWO nights.  We took the most inexpensive room we could get and it was still $510 a night at The Inn at Spanish Bay. So for one round at Pebble Beach it is $510 + $510 + $385.  But I am the king of retail and always manage to pay the full price, others may be able to get a better deal.

[Tim_Weiman]

DTaylor18:

Your point about double duty caddy for free was interesting.

It seems incredibly rude of the folks in the cart to expect such a thing. Does the resort push the caddies to do this? Do the caddies ever feel comfortable saying they liked to concentrate on their paying client's game?

Adam Clayman - any thoughts?

[Joe Hancock]

David,

Exactly why I played Pac Grove when my wife and I were there in December. I love golf, I love architecture, but I also have financial responsibilities to my family, etc. I guess that means I may miss out on some of the great courses of the world.

To know that a facility can get up to $1405 for 2 nights plus one round of golf is rather humbling to me.

Joe

[DTaylor18]

David- don't worry, you're not the only full retail guy, we were forced to pony up the same thing.  We did the same thing and stayed at the Inn as well.  It was very nice, but far from cheap.  Imagine if you had sprung for the "ocean view" room!

Tim- the caddie aspect was interesting and something we discussed a lot on the course.  It was a difficult position becuase my friend and I wanted his full attention and were paying a lot for him ($65 per bag plus tip) but at the same time didn't want to cause any ill will with our playing partners.  It was partly a problem because our partners were Japanese and spoke very little english, so communication wasn't easy.  It was rude beacuse he had to work almost as hard for them, and because it took away from us.  The caddie tried to hint to them to speed it up and do their own work, it may have been a language issue, but they didn't pick up the hints.  The caddie said it happens too often, which is why they were all pushing for the mandatory caddie or forecaddie.  He gave me the impression that the resort didn't care, as long as the play kept moving.  He said that the resort pockets $7 out of the $65, which is one of the reasons the cost of the caddie has gone up.  It used to all go to the caddies, but it was less, so the result is closer to a wash, but he said they were very unhappy because they now felt like "corporate employees" rather than "independent contractors", which is what he said they were.

Dan

[HamiltonBHearst]

Pat- I see it is your "understanding" that two men plunged to their death in a cart.  

I know you would ask many questions if told this story so could you please give us the details of this tragic event?

How foggy?
When?
What time of day?
Did anyone witness?
Was PB found lible?

Also, could you answer Mr. Turners question about what Rees jones original designs you have played and how you like them. Thank you.


  Last time I played PB i had the same problem with a caddy as he was raking bunkers and reading putts for the others yet was not compensated by them at the end of the round.

[ed_getka]

It is incredibly rude of people to make use of someone elses caddy and then not tip them. I prefer not to have caddies when playing, but if someone in the group has one, they will inevitably help me with something so I always give them some money at the end of the round, usually $10-20 depending on how helpful they were.