[Jack_Marr]

Tom

Yeah, you are right about members' areas. I was certainly not contraticting you. Most olders clubs have a members' bar and another bar for non-members. Members can bring guests into the members' bar. Most clubs do not really observe this,though, although many do. I do not like such policies.

And I should mention that it's not really protestism vs catholicism, although religion does come into it for many.

I hope I don't sound anti-British here, as I certainly am not. I hope I didn't even need to clarify this.

[ForkaB]

Tommy

Noboby that I know who lives over here has ever claimed to know more than the members of the clubs over here.

Some of us, however, might occasionally be confident that we know more that you know, given that all of your knowledge is skimpy and second hand and your interpretation of such is often muddled.  For example, there are no significant parts of HCEG which are off limits to non-members.

I know that you are just learning about the differences between the US and GBI, and are very keen to show off what you think you have learned.  Nevertheless, try to remember that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[TEPaul]

Rich:

I certainly never have claimed to know much about European golf but when any of you all tell me that what was told to me in seriousness by members of various European golf clubs about what their policies are and why is bullshit or those members are misinformed or pulling my leg is way beyond ludicrous to me. Matter of fact, those conversations (in 2003) were pretty interesting. I was interested in the way they did things and why and they ALL wanted to know from me (and a guy from the USGA) what the real story was in the States with this person they all referred to as "That Women"!

[Philip Gawith]

this is an interesting thread, albeit one that has become mildly fractious! there is surely no dispute, though, that if you have absolutely no connections at all, but are a decent golfer with some money, you can probably access 95% of courses in UK and Ireland that you want to play on. in the US, that figure is 15-20% max?

while getting on the course is surely the main thing (by some margin) it is also true that some of these courses in UK/Ireland are stuffy, and taking your money and allowing you on the course does not mean you are being afforded a warm welcome.

but better that than no access at all. tom is right that the different approach does come down to economics, but this does not alter the fact that many (most?) US golf tourists who come to UK/Ireland are taking advantage of access policies that do not work the same way for golf tourists trying to access their home courses back in the US -which is a shame.

all this said as a south african, with no transatlantic axes to grind!

[Mike_Sweeney]

in the US, that figure is 15-20% max?

Philip,

That 15-20% may be correct for the courses that are referred to here, but the actual number of public courses in the US is greater than 50%, I believe. Maybe someone will step in with the correct numbers.

Tom & Jack,

Rosses Point (Co Sligo) has a members bar, and when I was there I viewed it more of a way for the members to get away from the Tour Bus crowd. I would have liked to join them!! Despite the last name, I actually have little knowledge of Ireland's political history.

However, golf in Ireland does seem to be changing. I was recently told by a Ballybunion member that they are contemplating a new "Annual Overseas Membership", with an initiation fee something like 10,000 Euro and then an annual fee which I forget. Reality is Overseas Members won't get there every year, but they will want to set up their friends for rounds at Ballybunion. Thus while it may not be Private, Ballybunion will become even more difficult to get onto during the tourist season, if they actually do this.

I joined Enniscrone a few years back partly due to some of these and other changes. At the time a onetime payment for a Lifetime Overseas Membership was slightly more than my monthly fee for parking my car in Manhattan !! Now those fees have been raised at Enniscrone and others in the Northwest, but still there is no annual fee as there are at some of the newer clubs in the Southwest. I love going over, I just wish I had more time to do so. This year is already gone.

[Bill Gayne]

This debate needs to be in a historical context. First the United States, when the early golf clubs in America were established (Shinnecock, NGLA, Chicago) there were huge expanses of land available. The biggest issue of building a golf course at that time was probably how to deal with the native Indian populations. Chicago was on the frontier of the west. As such private clubs were built and they became part of American culture. The population at large really didn't care because there was so much other land availbale to access and the ability to travel was limited. State and later National parks were established that set aside land for public recreation. If you want to see Long Island in it's natural state go to Montauk State Park. A few miles down the road from Pacific Dunes is a huge state park that has preserved dune land for public recreation. There still are termendous expanses of land available in the United States to build private golf courses on and nobody is going to care (Sand Hills and all the other projects proposed for that part of the country).

In Ireland land is scarce. It also has not been preserved by a conservation movement like land in the United States was between 1900 and 1960. I read that Ireland has the lowest percentage of national park land to total land of any country in EU. The pressure to maintain land for the public good and recreation has been handled locally. This approach has led the private golf clubs to be more inclusive regarding visitors and an exclusionary club culture has not taken hold.

The only analogous situation that I can think of immediately in the United States would be water rights in the west.

[Scott_Burroughs]

From the National Golf Foundation (U.S) web site:  "As of December 31, 2002 there were 15,827 facilities, 11,501 of which were open to the public. A facility is a complex containing at least one golf course."

That makes 73% of facilities open to the public in the U.S., not 15-20%.

[Brian Phillips]

you can probably access 95% of courses in UK and Ireland that you want to play on. in the US, that figure is 15-20% max?

I think what Philip means is that of the private courses in America that you would want to play only 15%-20% are open for play if you send in an invite not that there are only 15%-20% of public courses in the US.

Brian.

[Philip Gawith]

thanks brian - that is exactly my point

[George Pazin]

Does anyone have any photos of the land other than what was in the T&L article? My recollection of the article was that it looked pretty good, but actually not as good as the land at Barnbougle. Of course, I don't think even the well travelled Herbert Warren Wind made it there.

How does one evaluate raw land? There is certainly inspiring land all over the place. I still use a photo Dick Daley emailed me of land in Nebraska that boggles the mind in its beautiful contours.

Is comparing the raw land between Castlegregory, Barnbougle, Nick Faldo's private island, Bandon, the Sand Hills of Nebraska, etc., even tougher than parsing the differences between Cypress, NGLA, Oakmont, Merion and Pine Valley?

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The "openness" issue is always a hot button one on this site. I wonder if the folks who criticise American clubs are as critical of the non-golf related closed aspects of their own society. We may have private clubs, but we don't have titles and royalty crap, and we have an economy that is open to a degree not found in many other places around the world, so I'll take that tradeoff any and every day of the week (especially when a simple plane ride will get me over to the wonderfully open private clubs in GB&I ).

To each his own, I say. There seems to be a difference in saying one hopes for a public course versus hoping for the failure of a private course, but maybe it's all in the interpretation.

Best of luck to everyone involved.

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