Thanks for travel tips

[Tom_Doak]

I have completed my drive from Yellowstone to Cle Elum, Washington and appreciate those who offered their opinions of where to stop en route.

For the record, I stopped to tour Old Works GC in Anaconda, MT, and Indian Canyon in Spokane.

I was really impressed with the front nine at Old Works, which uses some coal remnants to maximum effect ... better in this way than Pete Dye Golf Club.  Holes 3, 4, 6 and 7 were all excellent stuff.  Unfortunately they couldn't keep it up on the back nine, or it would have been worth a long drive to play.

Indian Canyon was just a bit of a disappointment.  Setting a bit like Olympic Club [wooded hillside], and no fairway bunkers at all [maybe 30 bunkers on the whole course].  A handful of interesting greens and some good holes on the back nine ... the 10th, 11th, 12th and 14th were the best of the lot.

Both of them are good golf, but I think my time was better spent in Yellowstone, and [hopefully] at this end on the course we're building.  But I definitely want to build a golf course in Montana someday.

[Keith Williams]

Tom,

I'm glad you liked both Yellowstone and Old Works, I completely agree with you regarding Old Works.  Holes 6 and 7 are especially unique.  Outside of the use of the creek on 10 and 11 it just seemed that the back nine lacked the "charisma" of the front.

I also agree that regardless of the quality of golf in the area, Yellowstone National Park is probably a better way to spend your time, truly one of our nation's natural masterpieces.  It really is amazing how much there is to see and do in Yellowstone; the last time I was there my friends and I spent a week hiking in the backcountry and as wonderful as the sights are from the "developed" areas of Yellowstone, what you can find and see well off of the roads is even more incredible.

A Tom Doak course in Montana would be great... The country between West Yellowstone and Bozemon is really beautiful.

Keith.

[Joel_Stewart]

Tom or Keith:
I was wondering if you played out of the black sledge or sludge or whatever its called?   It looks like sand but the consistency of it is much different an I found it difficult to play out of.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Many thanks for Pac Dunes!!! (Especially the back tee on #18!!!).

JWK

[Tyler Kearns]

Joel,

I played at Hawktree in Bismark, ND two years ago, and it too features bunkers filled with coal slag. I consider myself a pretty good bunker player, and on numerous occasions I left the ball in the hazard. I'm not sure if it was a case of too much coal in the bunker, or that the club dug much easier into the coal than sand. Regardless, it was frustrating, but rather unique.

Tyler Kearns

[Tom_Doak]

Joel:

I didn't have time to play the course but I did hit a few practice bunker shots out of the black stuff.  It's very different to play from than the sand we are using on most new courses, and I don't think I could learn to control the shot as precisely as I can from normal sand.  I'd be giving those bunkers a wider berth than usual.

[On the other hand, I saw some players' shots skip right through the stuff.]

I really liked the holes where the bunkers were allowed to swoop up onto a slope ... don't know if they have any maintenance problems with that or not, but it looked great.  I loved the places where they incorporated a ridge of the black stuff ... thought they should have let the ridge on #9 extend into the fairway as black stuff, instead of grassing the end of it.  I wasn't nearly as fond of the "regular" bunkers that had the black stuff flat in the bottoms.

[Steve_Lovett]

Tom,

Do you think Indian Canyon, if properly renovated, has the potential to be far greater than what it is now?  If so, in what way?

[Tom_Doak]

Steve,

Certainly there are some simple things that could be done there:  tree removal for one.  And I would love to go back to the old photos and see if there were some fairway bunkers back in the day, as there were a few spots which cried out to me for one.

However, I do not think that a big $ renovation project would boost the course among the nation's elite, primarily because it's 6200 yards from the back tees and the greens are interesting but not spectacular.

[Bill_McBride]

This is funny.  In your earlier thread, I recommended Indian Canyon based on one round in 1961.  You reported that #10, 11, 12 and 14 were the best holes.  Now I remember, we went out there late one afternoon and played the back nine!  I do recall a fairway bunker or two, but man, it's vague back there in the dim recesses of the memory vault!  I'm certain you are correct that an aggressive tree cutting program would be a good idea, the corridors were well defined 40+ years ago.

[Brad Swanson]

For a trip up in those parts, I'd more likely pack along my fly rod in place of my golf clubs!

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Mark Saltzman]

But I definitely want to build a golf course in Montana someday.

Mr. Doak, I guess you got what you wanted!

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

Thanks for digging up this old thread.  Interesting comments about Indian Canyon, which is the one I play the most often since moving back to the area.  A few thoughts.

1)  They have done a great job clearing out alot of the under brush on many holes which has made the course more playable with offline drives.
2)  The 9s have been switched so the holes Tom pointed out are all incurred right off the bat.  I think a few more holes are pretty interesting including, #8, a short uphill driveable par 4 with a wicked green.  #11, a reachable par 5 with wicked swales in the fairway and a half bowl green, #12 another short par 4 dog leg left, and #16 a split fairway hole with a wicked bowl green.
3)  I'm partly shocked to hear Toms take on the greens.  I don't know if he only walked the course or actually played it, but those Indian Canyon greens are some of the best I've ever played when they have them stimping at 9 or so.  Some of them appear to break uphill and the green at #14 is a brutal stunner. Lately they've been keeping them a bit slower to speed up play with less 3 and 4 putts.
4)  Tom is correct that there are no fairway bunkers, but on a course like Indian Canyon that plays narrow due to the trees, I'm not sure that many of the holes even need them.  There is plenty of challenge just to get it in play.
5)  That being said the course still benefit a bunch by thinning out the trees in a few spots.
6)  The course is short, but a lot of that is offset partially by playing the short par 4s up the hill.