[Jonathan Cummings]

#8 PVGC without question. JC

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam Clayman,

You have your facts wrong again.

My opinion regarding the reeds obscuring the green and surrounds was voiced long before you initiated any thread on  Spanish Bay.
The issue may have been repeated on your thread, but it wasn't the first time I voiced my opinion of the golf course.

Having a ball declared unplayable that's incredibly close to the green or areas of play is just one glaring example of a criticism of the golf course.

You can't think that # 16, 17 and # 18, or any other holes are good holes just because they have nice views of the Pacific Ocean.

Gib and Tommy can only be persuasive on the merits of their position or debates with me, not on their personalities, although I like them both.

You are wildly blind when it comes to the opportunity lost issue, which is a critical issue at Spanish Bay.

You love the golf course and that's great.
I, and many others don't share your tastes.

I again refer you to Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, and now Bandon Trails.  How would those courses have faired with a huge hotel and huge parking lot in the middle of them.

That you can't see the opportunity lost is truely amazing.

[A_Clay_Man]

"Having a ball declared unplayable that's incredibly close to the green or areas of play is just one glaring example of a criticism of the golf course"

Pat-Are you talking about the local rule regarding ESA's? Or the O.B. that comes into play, on a hole like #4? Maybe the lateral hazards? If you were to win the senior open, there, there would be no esa's.

"You can't think that # 16, 17 and # 18, or any other holes are good holes just because they have nice views of the Pacific Ocean."

Pat- Is that what you think I said, ever? Those holes are great, because of their shot testing ability combined with the  effect the natural elements have on playing the hole. When those elements are at their peak, a somewhat spiritual and unique golfing expeience can be had. From the spindrift coming off the waves, to the winds unpredictability.
 I still see no defense of your position, just a repeat of how biased I am. Fact is those holes you site, are at grade or even below. There's no faux build-up of teeing grounds, to take advantage of the vistas.

Why did you leave off 14 and 15?
Under your definition of where you think the hotel should be, the 12th, 13th and 14th wouldn't be in existence.

Did you know?
14 is one of Juniors favorites. Are you saying he doesn't know much about what makes great GCA? And you do?
Cause anyway you slice it, you'd have the pogo pogo lounge somewhere near the start of the fallaway fairway that tumbles to the sea, culminating in a seemless transition onto a very tricky green.

[Doug Siebert]

Waterville 16th 330yds. Liams Ace.  Tight driving hole with bunkers and OB down the right.  Thick right along the right and the best angle of approach from the left.  From memory the green slants from front to back.  Approaches need to be on the money.

Recently visited Waterville again and while I'm not a huge fan of that course relative to popular opinion I do believe this is one of the standout holes on the course (along with #18)  Its a devil in a crosswind and it'd take quite a lot of guts to do what Liam did for his ace and play driver because if you miss it even slightly right its goodbye Mr. Titleist.  BTW, they have built a new tee there to lengthen it slightly and change the angle a bit, so the new version of the hole is ace-free once again.

Another hole that's quite an interesting one is the 13th at Lahinch (the tiny par 4 that comes back after the par 5 12th)  Its like 260 or so IIRC, but plays into the prevailing wind and the slope in front of the green gathers you into one of two bunkers to the front left of the green.  My three playing partners weren't long enough to worry about the bunkers off the tee, while thinking about them may have been responsible for my big push fade that ended up nearly even with the front of the green but 10 yards short of being in the 12th fairway.  But given that I found my ball, and had a playable lie and stance, in hindsight I think that blind approach from a downhill lie in the rough was better than my playing partners coming in from "layup" position in the fairway, because I could aim at the back of the green and let the wind bring it in, completely taking the bunkers out of play.  As a result I parred despite my wild drive and they all visited the bunkers, on their second, third and second AND fourth shots, respectively.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Ask Sir Bob his opinion on the lost potential of Spanish Bay.


I'll throw out two unknown daunting short par 4's.  #4 and #11 at my home course, Wake Forest GC.  #4 is 345 dead flat yards, requires an iron off the tee, and is the #7 handicap hole.  #11 is 369 yards, also is an iron off the tee, and is the #2 handicap hole.

#4 is not part of the original design, but was put in after the housing development was put in on/near holes 2-5.  Fade off tee preferred to get past tree line and shorter shot in.  OB left, creek on right.  Approach is to narrowest green I've ever seen, 9 yards wide in front half of green, widens to 16 paces in back third.  Left is pond, right is bunker, far right is creek.  The narrow green with water so close on left makes it tough.

#11 has creek on left and ditch on right.  Approach is way uphill 145-190 yards, to toughest green on course.  Front is toughest pin location.  Better to be short of green on steep upslope fronting green than above pin.  Also better than being pin high.   Tier in middle of sloping green.  Right of green falls off quickly.  Green can't realistically be stimped higher than 9 or 10.

[gookin]

#13 at Valhalla eats me up.

[TEPaul]

"#8 PVGC without question. JC"

Jonathan:

I think you're right about that hole. After playing the first seven holes in level fours and then "ping-ponging" back and forth across that green and eventually picking up Bernard Darwin had this to say about #8;

"It's all very well to punish a bad stroke but the right to eternal punishment should be reserved for a higher tribunal than a green committee."

[THuckaby2]

TEP:

Just more evidence that Darwin was the best when it came to musing about this great game.  That is perfection.

But can you answer my query to Chip about Riviera #10, in the context here?  See down below.  I'm having a hard time thinking of that hole as daunting.  Re-terrorize me.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Ask Sir Bob his opinion on the lost potential of Spanish Bay.

As much as I love Bob, his wonderful flare for the story and it's climax, it must be noted he is a member next door. If that doesn't elicit a certain pre-disposition, I don't know what does. I have no more bias, or affinity, for Spanish bay, than many of the courses I've been fortunate to frequent. I simply feel it is much too easy to Bash a course based on some fantasy of what's not there.

As for Keiser's Oregon courses. Certainly there is little similarity between the two sites, save for the pond. The ruggedness of Oregon is NOWHERE near the gentile (most of the time) nature of the Asilomar beach area.

[TEPaul]

TomH;

Although Riviera's #10 may be one of most sublimely nuancy strategic holes anywhere I don't think I'd call it daunting compared to the things that happen at PVGC's #8. If you just miss PVGC's #8 green in certain places (like the bunkers either right, left or back, basically any golfer could make practically anything.

I think the frustration with Riviera's #10 is you can drive so close to it like just in front of it to the right, as Love did in the LA Open a few years ago. He wasn't ten steps from the green and hit the best little lob but still couldn't keep the ball on the green to the back pin and had to really scramble to make par. Near that green in the wrong position it seems even the best golfers know what should be a simple birdie elsewhere just might turn into an easy bogie!

In that way I don't think Riv's #10 is daunting like PVGC's #8 it just can be frustrating.

The green itself on PVGC's #8 is simply brilliant. It's Perry Maxwell, and it's sort of a series of two stair steps with a false front. I've seen good golfers hit the very back of that green and suck the ball down both levels and right off the front of the green. It's only about 2600 sf too and it's one of those narrow and long or shallow and wide depending on where your tee shot ends on the fairway.

[THuckaby2]

TEP:

Many thanks.  I thought I had that right, but as I say it has been a long time since I've played the golf hole.  "Frustrating" sounds more correct to me than "daunting."

PV #8, now "daunting" doesn't seem to be strong enough.  Maybe "terrifying?"

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam Clayman,

You're totally missing the point regarding Mike Keiser and his courses in Bandon, and the location of the lodgings versus the golf course.

I'm not going to convince you regarding the opportunity lost and you're not going to convince me, so let's just say we're on opposite ends of the spectrum regarding Spanish Bay.

However, I've encountered very few people who share your views.

[Top100Guru]

Let's see.......

#1 at Myopia Hunt Club

#6 at Myopia Hunt Club

#11 at Myopia Hunt Club

#13 at Myopia Hunt Club

......can knock out 4 of the "better" old short par 4's on just one course in just one round.......if you can get on!!!!!!!!!

[Marc Haring]

The 4th at Irvine can get a bit daunting especially the second shot to the green that is raised and practically on the railway line. It’s under 300 yards but you’d have to be psychotic to have a go at it.

This is the drive to a fairway in a sea of gorse.


The second if poorly played could result in a rail disaster so beware the involuntary twitch.


The 5th is similar and drivable at about 290. The green is perched at the top on the right.


Another one is #9 at Worplesdon. At about 340 it is perhaps not reachable but you can get close if you have the bottle to smash it over the corner and the pond.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

#8 at PVGC is #1 in my book, especially the left hand green.

A common over/under wager for a foursome is 22.5 shots.

#6 at Winged Foot West is on my list as is #17 at Country Club of New Canaan, CT.

JWK

[RT]

Have had considerable fun (birdies) and disasters (double B's) on no. 6 at Royal Cinque Ports (Deal).

[texsport]

#13 on The Quarry@Giants Ridge is one of the greatest short par 4's anywhere.

It's daunting if you do anything but lay up safely to the right. Any errant, agressive play, whether to the left fairway or attempting to drive the green, can easily result in double bogey.

The safe play to the right usually produces a par or bogey, but rarely a birdie because of the elevated, severely undulating green.

The beauty of the design is that  the length of the hole and severely downhill tee shot are just too tempting and dare you to go for it  most of the time.

[Jeff Goldman]

I don't know why I didn't think about this before, especially since I wrote about it and took pictures for the summer homework assignment (I hope I am not jumping the gun to say I think Ran posted the piece), but Tom Doak called the 6th hole on the South Course at Olympia Fields, a "drive and death-defying pitch par-4."  It is.  I think more daunting than 3 or 14 on the North course because it's just a short iron and the consequences of a miss are way more severe, with huge dropoffs front, right and left (on the right its maybe 20-30 feet or so, straight down, and the green is very narrow, so you can ping-pong pretty good if your not careful.

Jeff Goldman

[Brian_Gracely]

Mark Harig,

That #4 hole looks like a smaller version of #11 at Royal Troon, except the train tracks are on the other side.

Scott Burroughs,

I'm not sure how you play #4 and #11 at WFGC on a regular basic.  They would drive me to serious drinking, especially the green on #11 (which is borderline silly).  But I'll bet you if you moved them to an East Coast club (except for the houses on #4), that people would rave about their unique characteristics.  What did we determine the width on the front of #4 green was, like 10 yards?  


I'd throw out:

#5 at Tobacco Road.....be precise off the tee with a Driver, or be precise with a short-iron to a domed/narrow/false-fronted green.

#1 at Prestwick....OB right; Gorse left; History behind (and all around); Long-iron first short of the day with no practice field; and a very undulating green with OB directly right.  

   

[Mike Benham]

The 4th at Irvine can get a bit daunting especially the second shot to the green that is raised and practically on the railway line. It’s under 300 yards but you’d have to be psychotic to have a go at it.

Marc -

This hole looks very similar but a mirror image of #1 at Prestwick ...

Mike

Edit:

Brian Gracely wrote: "#1 at Prestwick....OB right; Gorse left; History behind (and all around); Long-iron first short of the day with no practice field; and a very undulating green with OB directly right.

Exactly what I was thinking ... except that you forgot to mention the shot, Prestwick measure of course, of Kummel you had before your tee shot ...  

[Dan Kelly]

Hazeltine No. 16.

Does Pebble Beach No. 8 qualify as "short" nowadays?

[Rick Shefchik]

Dan -- No, I don't think Pebble Beach #8 qualifies as short -- even now.

But I also don't think Hazeltine #16 does, either -- at least, not in major tournament play. They played it at 402 in the last PGA, and nobody thought about driving it. Daunting, yes. Short -- not quite. Not yet.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Scott Burroughs,

I'm not sure how you play #4 and #11 at WFGC on a regular basic.  They would drive me to serious drinking, especially the green on #11 (which is borderline silly).  But I'll bet you if you moved them to an East Coast club (except for the houses on #4), that people would rave about their unique characteristics.  What did we determine the width on the front of #4 green was, like 10 yards?  

#11 green is only borderline silly in the winter, when the greens are fastest (and when you played it), as the bent greens get matted down, since they are not growing then.

#4 green is 9 yards wide at one point on the front portion of the green.  That's how wide the more famous short par 3 9th at Myopia Hunt Club is (and it's 40 yards long):




I never called #4 and #11 great holes, that's for sure.  Lay-up irons off the tee generally don't float my boat, even though each one is not that easy.  I call #4 the "Florida hole", since it's dead flat, border by homes and OB on one side, a creek on the other, and has a pond with a fountain by the green.  

#11 is a better hole, though.  A fun and challenging approach to an elevated green, an interesting green complex (only hole on course with no bunkers - it doesn't need it), and strategy of leaving the ball short of the green when front pin placements arise.

[ChipOat]

Tom Huckaby:

Esteemed Doyen Tom Paul beat me to the punch with both the Darwin quote and the details on both PV #8 and Riviera #10.

I don't find Riv #10 terrifying, but I'm not a good wedge player so "daunting" absolutely fits my experience with the hole.  CPC #9 is somewhere in the middle of those two for me.

[Gerry B]

#8 at Pine Valley is a gem - I was fortunate to make par last month on back to back days -greens alternated each day. The rest of the foursome made 6's and 7's. The right green is the definiton of a postage stamp.

Add #6 at Ridgewood (Center 9) to the list -it is called the five and dime for a reason and  #11 at Shoreacres deserves honorable mention as well.

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