[Dustin Knight]

We all know about those short par fours that make your knees wobble when you step on the tee, and when you walk off with par you really feel like you dodged a bullet.

Which hole that you have played do you feel most appropriately relates to the above and why?

[Dustin Knight]

For me it has to be a toss up between two:

1) The tenth at the Lakes golf club in Sydney or

2) The 14th at New South wales also in Sydney

But the 14th at NSW wins by a nose it's only a 2 or 3 iron
then a wedge or 9 iron with out the wind but an absolute
brute when the southerly blows.

The tee shot is tough over the ocean cliffs though the design allows for the wind and their is generous bail out area on the right but the further you bail the longer the second shot to the elevated green becomes, fantastic use of the land.
the green is so elevated it blocks out the wind and if you miscalculate long, left or right look out. Some come up way short when you fail to take enough club to counteract the breeze. Not the greatest description of the hole but it makes me shiver just thinking about it. i'll post some pics when i find the right ones. I'm sure all the Aussie GCA'ers know exactly what i'm talkin' about.

[James Edwards]

The Classic reply for me would be the 4th at Woking, England.

The Historic reply for me would be the 12th at TOC, St Andrews, Scotland

The Romantic Reply for me would be the 9th at CPC, Monterey, US

The Modern Reply for me would be the 14th at Loch Lomond, Scotland

The Best and Worst reply for me would be the 10th at the Belfry, England

My favourite(s) reply would be either the 4th or 6th at the CC Brookline

[Andrew Summerell]

Dustin,

The 14th at NSW is one of my fave's as well.

I must admit though, I tend to hit driver no matter what. The only thing I change is how much I cut off.

Andrew

[Patrick_Mucci]

# 1 at NGLA.

Especially when the winds are up and the green fast and firm.

Walking off with a par is a good way to start your round.
Higher scores can ruin your day rather quickly.

# 14 at NGLA can be very difficult as well.

[Martin Del Vecchio]

#13 at Myopia Hunt Club, at about 350 yards

It has a generously-wide fairway, which you will most likely hit an iron to, since it runs out after about 240 yards.  

The trouble is the severely elevated green, with a steep slope immediately behind it and in front of it.  Anything long leaves an extremely difficult chip back, which really really wants to run through the green and down to a bunker 20 yards short of the green.  Anything short will fall back into the bunker, or down the hill into the thick gorse/rough.

A member told me that Lee Janzen played there last year when in town for the Deutsche Bank tournament, and he said that there wasn't a 350-yard par-4 in the world that he couldn't birdie.  He didn't.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'll add # 6 at Winged Foot West

[blasbe1]

#6 at Pacific Dunes where it is possible to make a double digit score

R.Man

Add #16 at P.D. to that list, I put a wedge into the back bunker downwind and ended up with an equitably controlled 6 (I actually left one in the bunker for want of a stance, then hit it through the green and missed a 5 footer for 6).  I played that hole 4 times, made 7, 5, and (2) 4s.      

[michael j fay]

# 13 at Salem Country Club.

[A_Clay_Man]

Spanish Bay has more than it's fair share of daunting short two-shotter's.Of course when it was designed they weren't necessarily classified as short, but are now.

The 2nd, is reminiscent of the ninth at CPC 289 ish and the 15th and 17th holes, with their target predisposition, could qualify as daunting. They surely do instill hatred into many who don't care for the course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam Clayman,

Your undying loyalty to a mediocre product, when and where greatness could have been achieved, is stupifying.

You seem to have a sentimental attachment that transcends your ability to see the golf course in its true architectural light.

Like Marlon Brando, "it could have been a contender."

But, it AINT.

It represents one of the greatest opportunities lost in the last 40 years.

[michael j fay]

IMHO the very best collection of daunting short par four holes can be found at Merion and Crystal Downs.

# 13 at Salem just scares me more than any of the ones at Merion or Crystal Downs.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat- Since I have NO DOUBT, my exeriences around SB exceed yours by a minimum of ten fold, I think if you keep stating your opinion as fact, for a few more years, you might be called upon to manage the Dems campaign, next go around.

What I find dichotomous is how YOU are always the one who includes "outside factors" (realities) when evaluting a golf course.

How does the Hotel impact the financial success of the project that does exist?

I can think of no other course, other than CPC, that combines the mix and variety of links and parkland styles, to such effectiveness. Spyglass doesn't come close, because it's one or the other. At Spanish Bay, the golfer starts on the coast and is routed up into the Forest climaxing at the 12th green. A green you think should be the hotel. Then finishes back on the beach. It's sureal under many conditions.

 How many differing conditions have you golfed SB in?

How would putting the Hotel there, have dealt with the enviornmetal impact, on that large baranca, that is used to such effectiveness?

What about the millions made from the sale of spit and Kleenex Condos? Does'nt that have an effect on the viability of the project?

Please explain your apparent hypocricy on the issue of viability for other courses, but not this one?

And PLEASE PLEASE don't use the editor's style of response, that you seem to need to stay focused to ask more questions?

[Shaun Carney]

... I think if you keep stating your opinion as fact, for a few more years, you might be called upon to manage the Dems campaign, next go around.

Hey Hey!! Low Blow!

[Sean Walsh]

I wouldn't have thought that daunting is what most short par 4's are aiming for.  I would think a good short par 4 should aim for tantalising.

To keep Tommy happy I have done 20 or 30 minutes research and will suggest a group of short 4's that I have found interesting.  

Port Fairy 13th 276m.  Almost drivaeable but with a severe drop to the left and two reasonably deep bunkers if you attack the green.  The green is driveable but if the drive or approach is left it will not hold.  Coming after one of the most scenic 5's and before a very good longish 4 and great 3.  The 13th is part of a stretch of holes that are hard to match.

Kingston Heath 3rd 269m. Very driveable par 4 but trouble provided by the Heath's renowned bunkering.  Only a very well judged drive grants a good angle for the approach to the green.

Kingsbarns 6th Driveable 318 - 337yds.  Make a decision on the tee go for the very narrown gap to the green or lay up sort and left.  The lay up provides a worse angle to attack the green from.  

County Louth Baltray 14th 322-332yds.  Turn at the Northern end of the course and survey a green well protected by rough ground.    

Brora 12th 314 -362yds.  Protected by bunkers in the landing zone.  One of Broras many good short 4's

Royal Dornoch 1st, 5th and 15th all deserve mention.  Rich can tell you about 1 and 15.  The 5th is a delghtful  hole from a high tee avoid the many waiting bunkers from between 317-354yds.  Going for the green is a very risky option.

The Island (Dublin).  6th 328yds.  From an elevated tee look for the green tucked behind a large dune, with a narrow entrance protected by a bunker on the left. Also the 8th 316 yds. Blind tee shot to a bowl green. either lay up with an iron or go for it.  rough ground between 220 and 260 from the tee.

Waterville 16th 330yds. Liams Ace.  Tight driving hole with bunkers and OB down the right.  Thick right along the right and the best angle of approach from the left.  From memory the green slants from front to back.  Approaches need to be on the money.

Carne 11th 302-332yds sharp dogleg right that can't be cut.  Bunker to catch any shots running long.  High dines both sides of the hole.  Approach is to an elevated green that rejects all but the most precise approaches.
Carne 12th 280-300yds Elevated tee dogleg left.  lay up in the valley then look skywards for the green.  well judged PW will get you home.  

Tralee 8th 359 - 399.  Not really short but forces decision between driver and layup.  Tough green to hit.
Tralee 17th 309-355yds Probably using an iron to lay up on a smallish fairway.  approach to an elevated gree with a narrow neck

Cruden Bay 3rd 274 yds.  Green out of view.  Drive through the narrow gap and hpe to find the green.  Little margin for error if going for the green.

A course without a tantalising short par4 is missing a key ingredient that may either reward the brave or punish the foolhardy.

[THuckaby2]

A course without a tantalising short par4 is missing a key ingredient that may either reward the brave or punish the foolhardy.

Sean - great stuff - especially this line.  I might have to change my tag line at the bottom of my posts... This is so true...

BTW, I simply must know:  where is Port Fairy?  I live relatively near San Franciso.  I just have to ask.

As for short, daunting par 4s, well... the 2nd shot into #6 at Pacific Dunes - really no matter where I left the tee shot - always scared the crap of of me.  That's got to be the poster-child for this in my book.

As for another that people would know, how about #17 at Cypress?  Both tee shot and second are darn scary.  This might not qualify as short, though.

#4 at Spyglass definitely qualifies... try playing that in a tournament, as I recently did... mucho terrify-o....

TH

[Sean Walsh]

Port Fairy.  Small course developing a cult following amongst those that love links golf.  It's about 3 hours drive west of Melbourne on an area of coast known as "The Shipwreck Coast".  An extremely good course reminiscent of some rugged Irish Links rather than their Scottish cousins.

The best part is that it is $20AUD to play (maybe 25).  Not very happy about a 25% price hike in one year  . Yearly membership would be something around $400AUD.

I believe Mike Clayton is a big fan and is doing some minor remodelling.

Tom H - If you want I can email you a few photos or try and work out how to post them here.

[Rick Shefchik]

Tom H --

I was about to add #4 at Spyglass to this list, as I was surprised no one had yet. I haven't played it in tournament conditions -- nor would I want to (especially with my favorite hole location .)

Another good choice is #14 at Hazeltine. It is nearly driveable, but sane people tend to hit 3-irons through the chute of trees, and hope they hit them well enough to leave a very high-lofted club to a green that is not easy to hold.

[THuckaby2]

Sean:

God I love the Aussies.  They should all be made honorary Irishmen, every last one.  That is, if they'd want that "honor" (I say as one myself, in partial heritage anyway).  

Do send me some picks of Port Fairy,if you get a chance.  I am absolutely not doubting that it's a great course - I'm sure it is - I just cracked up at the name given the connotation of that word in San Francisco.

Rick:

Whooo-boy... Playing it in a serious tourney kinda took all the "god I love this hole, the green is so cool and it's so fun trying to et a tee shot to where one has a decent approach" out of it and changed it to "jesus, where the hell do I put the tee shot.. god I hope I don't go left, that's dead...can't go right, that's dead too... and man that green is tough to hit... there is nowhere to miss..."

 

Good call re Hazeltine, btw.

TH

tom.huckaby@clorox.com

[ChipOat]

Nobody's mentioned Pine Valley #8 or Riviera #10 yet!

Those were probably the 2 leaders on previous threads regarding this subject.

[SPDB]

I'll echo what Michael Fay said about Merion possessing the finest collection of short par 4s. #11 terrifies me. I'm always relieved when I walk off there with anything below a 6.

Another good one I played recently is Olympic (Ocean) #14.  

[David Kelly]

I have never figured out a strategy for #17 at Crystal Downs.  Lay back for position which is hard as hell due to the ball kicking left off the fairway or blast it as close to the green as possible which will leave you with a difficult half wedge IF you manage to hit it straight??

[THuckaby2]

Chip:

I have no knowledge of #8 Pine Valley, but would you really call #10 Riviera "daunting"?  Call it wonderful, call it great, call it a strategic marvel, just don't call it that.  I don't stand on that tee with any fear... and only have fear on the approach if the tee shot goes right.  Oh heck yeah, the approach from the rough on the right is fearsome for sure.  But the tee shot is fun city, and assuming one stays left, it's generally go-time, thinking birdie.

But of course, it's been a few years since I've played it.  Maybe the fear has been beaten out of me.  Please do explain.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam Clayman,

It's simple, the site could have produced a far, far better golf course.

That you don't see that, is the foundation of your bias toward the golf course.

Gib Papazian, Tommy Naccarato and many others have voiced the same opinion, so it's not an isolated evaluation, limited to my point of view.

I don't need to see a golf course 1,000 times to determine its relative merit, nor do I need to see it 1,000 times to determine that a better course could have been built on that site.

If they received the permits to put a hotel and parking lot in, I think they would have gotten the permits to put a golf course in as well, so I don't buy any of your permitting issues.
Don't conveniently forget that the site was an industrial/commercial complex prior to being a golf course.

While I debated Tommy and many others regarding Sandpines, I acknowledge that a bettter golf course could have been built on that site as well.

You have emotional blinders that don't permit you to evaluate Spanish Bay in a detached, independent manner.

It remains one of the greatest opportunities lost, in the last 40 years.

Luckily, Mike Keiser saw the light, and let the design of the golf course have first priority on the land

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat- Sorry to hear you are so easily swayed by Tommy and Gib. But please explain to me how: Because I don't see what's not there, I am biased? I have golfed the course in all types of conditions, (and in serious competition) caddied the course in more and I still don't see what is so obvious to you, the cogniscenti.

C'mom, provide some specific architectural criticism. Oh wait you can't. The course you wish were there, does not exist.

As I recall I started a thread many moons ago, detailing what was good about SB. What is so bad? And if you try to use the reeds, on the pond excuse, save it.

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