Flat Lies: An architectural defect?

[Dan Kelly]

Johnny Miller has repeatedly mentioned that flat lies are very, very common at Olympia Fields. He most recently asked his electronic companions (I may be paraphrasing slightly): "Have you ever seen so many flat lies at a major championship -- especially in the areas where you're supposed to hit it?"

I think we'd all agree that a multiplicity of lies add interest to a golf course. But I wonder: Are flat lies a flaw, which an architect should avoid and/or obliterate?

What say ye?

[Michael Dugger]

I suspect a lot of those lies are not quite as flat as JM has made them out to be, although I'll admit I haven't watched any of the tourney today.  A lot of flat lies are not quite as flat as we think.  The human eye doesn't really notice the difference between 0 and a 2-3% grade, however water certainly does, notice the difference, that is.  When we get on our soapbox and preach our minimalist philosophies it seems hypocritical to denounce altering something in the name of avoiding flat lies.  We take what the land has to offer, right?.  Flat is better than overly steep, this much I'd like to think we can agree on.  Certainly a flat lie is more suitable to golf than that of some ridiculously steep slope, correct?

I wonder what are the options?  We can get out the dozer and create some catch basins.  Something like the following, with x representing the bottom of the basin......
____________________________________________________
        
           x                     x                     x                    x


x                      x                     x                       x
____________________________________________________
This sort of design would promote water flow and create varying stances, but it sure would look artificial.  Regardless of how you proposed to alter things,(where to place your x's) there is always going to be the issue of time and money spent.  Is it best to be changing something that to some degree is playable as it is?  I venture to say a lot of times it is not.  But, of course, that's just my two cents.    

[ForkaB]

If you want to identify the best players, the fewer flat lies the better.  Fairway "movement" doesn't seem to be OF's strong suit.

[Tom_Doak]

I HATE flat lies in the fairways, which is one reason I like Crystal Downs so much.

It's also one reason I hate so many modern courses.  Many architects build flat fairways supported by heavy contours (ie mounding) in the roughs, so it looks unnatural as heck.  They would do much, much better if there was no easily defined transition between the two.

When building Texas Tech I was often reminded of what Pete Dye said at the inaugural TPC event at Sawgrass ... "As long as no one says it's too flat or too easy, I won't mind."

[Mark_F]

If architects obliterate flat lies, why do they do it?

Because it is obviously something the great unwashed demand.

The harder question is how do we bring them back.

[Jeff_McDowell]

Mark, your comment about the giving the unwashed masses what they want reminds of a comment I heard from a golf board member.

I was waxing eloquently (or droning on and on) about how nice the fairways would roll, when a board member interupted me and said, "You'd better flatten those hills. We don't want something like the White Bear Yacht Club."

[Dan Kelly]

I was waxing eloquently (or droning on and on) about how nice the fairways would roll, when a board member interupted me and said, "You'd better flatten those hills. We don't want something like the White Bear Yacht Club."

Jeff -- That's one of the most horrifying things I've ever heard! (Especially because he's played WBYC, and the closest I've gotten is driving past it and seeing those FANTASTIC rolling hills! There's no justice, I tell you.)

I hope you didn't get the job.

====

Tom Doak -- Do I understand you correctly?

If the landing area will produce an abundance of flat lies, you'll grade it to eliminate them?

Or do you go out of your way to avoid that landing area?

Or both?

[Jeff_McDowell]

I think my comment to the board member was something like "No, we wouldn't want to create something like the WBYC". Depending on my blood-sugar level I was either laughing when I said that or furious. I can't remember.

[Rick Shefchik]

The last time I played White Bear Yacht Club it was with a member who told me on the first tee, "The key to playing this course is to know where to hit it for a flat lie."

He then proceded to show me where those places were, and how much better you could score if you managed to put your ball there. It was like Donald Ross had invented target golf 70 years before the term came into vogue.

It seems to me you'd have to be a member of a course like WBYC for quite a while -- and be a pretty good player -- before you could take full advantage of that kind of local knowledge, but the fun part is that -- unlike target golf in the desert or wetlands -- you still have a chance to salvage a score if you miss your targets.

[Chris_Clouser]

I think this was a common idea the designers of that era almost universally used.  They were masters of the terrain and angles.  In going around the Crystal Downs recently, I was amazed at the undulations that Maxwell and Mackenzie designed into that place, but also at the amazingly opportune places that the lie was somewhat level.  Not flat mind you, but level enough that you didn't have to completely adjust your swing to pull off the shot.  Especially in comparison to some of the other lies you could achieve.  

Not having seen Olympia Fields, I couldn't comment on whether it has a lot of flat lies or not.  I'll be interested to watch and hear the inane comments once again from JM and the crew about architecture.  Last years telecast of the US Amateur and US Women's Open show how little many of the commentators really understand about architecture from any perspective except from that of a tour player's.  

[Tom_Doak]

Dan Kelly:

In most cases I would not grade any fairway at all other than to make a hole more visible.

Obviously, when the whole site is flat like Texas Tech, we have to create enough undulations to make the property surface drain.  In that case, I'll try to give some interesting contours in many of the landing areas.

When the site has a variety of undulations, I will try to design holes so that the landing areas have their fair share.  I wouldn't try to get the landing areas in the flattest spots -- I'd try to get most in undulating country, and a couple in the flatter spots.  I think it's also good if you can build some holes where the golfer has a choice to lay back off the tee to gain a flatter lie for the approach (from a longer distance).

But, no, I did not mean that I would re-grade a lot of fairways to eliminate flat lies in normal circumstances.  If the property is relatively gentle, but it drains okay, I'm not going to start tearing that up.

[Forrest Richardson]

Yes, of course, this "flat lie" bunch of monkey pox --- from the same fellow who can, with a straight face and TV make-up, tell millions of people that "the putts always break toward the Pacific..."

My friends, nothing is flat, including basketball courts. Subtlety lies everywhere and JM cannot ascertain this from his parrot's perch anymore than we can from our living rooms.

[Paul_Turner]

Flat, smooth lies is what turns me off a course like Atlantic.  The terrain has been stripped of any idiosyncracy and consequently, any kind of individuality.

[Sean_A]

The last time I played White Bear Yacht Club it was with a member who told me on the first tee, "The key to playing this course is to know where to hit it for a flat lie."

He then proceded to show me where those places were, and how much better you could score if you managed to put your ball there. It was like Donald Ross had invented target golf 70 years before the term came into vogue.

It seems to me you'd have to be a member of a course like WBYC for quite a while -- and be a pretty good player -- before you could take full advantage of that kind of local knowledge, but the fun part is that -- unlike target golf in the desert or wetlands -- you still have a chance to salvage a score if you miss your targets.

I thought this thread was interesting and undeveloped!

Rick seems to be suggesting that flat lies can be part of good architecture and I agree with that notion. I will agree with practically anything to create interest and stop the onslaught of bunker production.  I do think savvy golfers will and do sacrifice yardage for flat lies just as they sacrifice yardage for visibility. I am not quite sure why folks would be so dead set against the concept of flat lies as the reward.

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean - a good post and a good question. I'm certainly not against flat lies, but it strikes me: if that flat lie is out there on the left side of the fairway some 230-250 yards from the tee and is clearly evident, then we're essentially talking about "target golf" and "fairness" (though rarely described that way); while on the hand, if sections of flat lies are scattered throughout the fairway willy nilly, then we're talking about "naturalism" and "randomness".  Those are the only two alternatives, as far as I can see. Is there a middle ground?
Peter

[Sean_A]

Pietro


I don't see an issue with either alternative...there is a place for both approaches.  Although, I would be surprised if archies actually create much randomness/naturalism in shaping.  I would think that would be more the product of finding that land and going with it. Even then, I suspect archies will tone down the randomness aspect to provide some sort of meaning as to where one should or could aim. 


Ciao

[BCrosby]

In the Atlanta area there are any number of fw's on courses built in the '50's and 60's that were created by a road-grader carving a flat area along the length of a ridge line. Mike Young pointed out the phenomenon to me years ago.


The fw's were carved out of a hill the way a road would be. The natural slopes of the terrain outside the fw are nowhere in evidence within the fw.


Bob   

[Jason Topp]

The course I played as a kid was built around the 1900 and featured a number of big hills and/or rolling terrain.  To my eye, it appeared that the course generally incorporated preexisting contours but the architect plowed out flat spots on most of the par 4's and 5's that provided a significant reward to someone who knew the course.

It made for interesting golf.  One needed to (1) recognize the flat spot and the slope one would need to use to get there, (2) decide whether to aim there or to a more aggressive position and (3) execute the shot.  Missing the flat spot led to an interesting recovery shot that was often blind and from a hilly lie. 

Unfortunately, they installed irrigation after I left the area so that now some of the flat spots are in the rough.  Others are behind trees.   

[JESII]

Well, if you must be behind a tree, wouldn't you like the lie to be flat?

[George Pazin]

Well, if you must be behind a tree, wouldn't you like the lie to be flat?

I'm assuming this is directed at me, since I'm the only one who hits it behind trees on here, but the answer is no, I still don't like flat lies.


More seriously, this has long been my biggest criticism of the handful of modern "classics" I've played. I know I posted on here that I felt Paa Ko Ridge had been overly smoothed out, or at least I suspected it had, as it seemed the fairway lies were overly flat. Plenty of elevation changes, but not much in the way of fairway movement.


I recall reading Nicklaus's thoughts about The Old Course on this matter. Someone asked him if TOC was a difficult course; he said, not so much difficult as awkward. That's just another lesson of TOC that has been lost on many, I guess.


P.S. Kinda sad seeing the names above of people who don't post much anymore...

[Bill_McBride]

Sometimes being accurate enough to drive into a flat area is rewarded with an easier approach.  The best example I can think of is the wonderful short par 4 17th at Royal Cinque Ports.   There's a flat area down the right center that's known as "Vardon's Parlour," in honor of the great man's driving into that spot all four days of the Open Championship and presumably scoring well on the hole. 

[George Pazin]

I'm glad Bill posted on this. His wonderful home course is pretty flat - yet there aren't always flat lies.


Understand that and you will understand more than most.

[Peter Pallotta]

Well, if you must be behind a tree, wouldn't you like the lie to be flat?

That's a great title for a self help book.
Sort of a mix of The Road Less Travelled and Eat, Pray, Love - except with only the eating part.
Bob Rotella could write the forward, aimed at all the mid handicappers who are too hard on themselves.
"Pete" longs for canted fairways to test himself and prove his mettle - and yet routinely scores near triple digits. "Jimmy" his plus handicap friend, looks for and happily finds every flat lie he can.
Who understands the game better?

[David Davis]

I'm going to generalize a bit here. Bill's example from Royal Cinque Ports is something I love and one of probably many exceptions. I'm guessing that was natural there (though I'm not 100% certain). It's a cool strategy if you can hit it like Vardon did.


Where I tend to consider it bland architecture is when found on typical parkland or resort courses.


It's a far too often recurring issue then IMO. I'll pick on China, when I visited Mission Hills Haiko, the courses I played rewarded pretty much all fairway hits with flat almost plateau lies. The difference between the back tees and the regular tees was always this 25-50 yds for the perfect lies. What I don't follow is that the entire site is totally fabricated and everything around the fairways looks like a beautiful garden, certainly varied terrain etc and plenty of bunkers but the rest almost all flat. Resort courses are very often like this as well. The Dunes at Shenzhou same thing, don't think I once had an uneven lie there, played very well that day and felt the course was incredibly boring because of that simple fact, even though the rest of it looked "decorated" and like you'd expect tons of variation.


I've seen this back all over the place, The Netherlands, US, Spain etc etc. Most of the courses are modern courses, so I guess, give the team a few bulldozers and they'll make highways or landing strips. My guess is in some cases it's a budget issue but for my above examples it's hard to imagine that being the case.


On the other hand maybe that's just the prereq for a lot of parkland and resort golf.

[Dan Kelly]

Well, this is weird.


I have not looked in on the Treehouse in several months. Now I do ... and a thread I, of all people, started, more than 13 years ago, is at the top of the list of threads.


I wonder if I agree with myself!


(Why I haven't been here: I took a buyout from my newspaper at the end of October and have been working, ever since, to catch up with stuff ... and to launch my new website, where I am continuing the daily publication of "my" "column" -- a readers' storytelling column called Bulletin Board. I would be pleased and honored if you would check it out and sign up to follow. If it's your kind of thing, you won't be disappointed. The URL: BBonward.com. Thanks.)


P.S. Hi, George. I've missed you, too.