greg norman - 27 courses!

[Philip Gawith]

greg norman is quoted in the times today as saying that he  currently has 27 courses under construction around the world. are the likes of nicklaus, fazio etc doing this sort of volume? and how many were the likes of donald ross doing in their heyday?

[David_Tepper]

Phil-

I thought I once read that Donald Ross was involved (one way or another) with over 400 courses in the US & Canada. That is pretty fair volume for his day.

Whatever one thinks of Greg Norman, you have to admit that his business activities are very impressive (and very profitable).

DT

[Philip Gawith]

i suppose those 400 spread over a lot of years. i wonder if the likes of norman will ever reach those numbers, even at 27/yr. i somehow doubt it. you are right re his business success - he may not win the esteem of GCA but no doubt the bank manager approves! actually, i am not qualified to comment re his courses and i know that the course he built for kerry packer in australia (ellerston?) is supposed to be wonderful. not sure about the rest. i have played doonbeg which has some great holes, and some not so good.  i think the weaker holes partly relate to planning issues, but not all of them.

[jg7236]

I heard he is doing one near Lake Tahoe, is that true?

Cheers,

John

[Tom_U]

While I, too, am not qualified to fjudge the relative merits of his courses, I have played one that was a real stinker--the White Course at Doral. Only one memorable hole, a short par 3 with a severely plateaued green. The rest was an attempt at building a desert course in Florida  Whether 27 active projects is too many depends on a number of factors. If delegated appropriately and with enough talent in the organization, 27 may not be too many at all. As for the art of the work, Vermeer only cracked out a few canvases in a lifetime, while Amsterdam contemporaries like Rembrandt and Hals were far more prodigious in their output.
It's not the quantity but the quality (and keeping the clients happy).

[Mike Hendren]

Greg better be busy to pay the fuel and slip fees for his new yacht.  I'm having no luck posting the link, but suggest you boat-lovers google "greg norman yacht slide show."  It is obscene.

Mike

[Philip Gawith]

 i knew there was a good reason why i posted this thread. i suppose one course pays for the bathroom.

[Joel_Stewart]

I heard he is doing one near Lake Tahoe, is that true?

I don't think so, at least I haven't heard of one.   Jack Nicklaus is now constructing Old Greenwood in Truckee which I think is the only course underway.

[John Foley]

Mike,

I had heard that Mr. Norman's yacht extravagence is all marketing. he uses it then sells it out after a while and makes a huge profit on it.

He sure aint running up the money leaders list funding this, which is sad also.

[Mike Hendren]

John,

I read somewhere that the builder agreed to do so for cost in return for the publicity.  Budgeted cost of $50MM was purportedly exceeded by $20MM if you believe all you read on the www.

Wonder if he wears his cap backwards when at the helm?

Mike

[John Foley]

 

If he does do you think they would let him park the yacht in Newport harbour?

[Bill Gayne]

I read this morning that the rumor going around Troon is that Tiger is looking for something similar.

[cary lichtenstein]

How can any architect be involved with 27 courses and do justice to any of them? If quantity = success, then I guess Norman has achieved architectual success.

It seems to me that the hands on architect, if talented produces a far superior product.

[John_Cullum]

Certainly Ross had some periods when he had upwards of twenty going at one time, and he couldn't get around to them on his own G-IV. of course, he probably didn't do them all justice either.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Geez... what a boat! Unbelievable, really.

I'd like to know how a "golf course architect" with 27 golf courses in development, a couple other companies to run, and a few golf tournaments to play throughout the world over the course of a year, finds the time to enjoy that yacht.

He must be an exceptional delegator    

[peter_p]

his website http://www.shark.com/gngcd/portfolio/in_progress.php  portfolio lists 16 course projects for his design company.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Proving that I do have a life beyond golf, that sport fishing boat on the back of Norman's yacht is a 42' Post which weighs about 20 tons ! Can one of the engineers please tell me how they get it on and off the back of that yacht ??

[John Foley]

Mike,

Via the Helicopter  

[bakerg]

I was flipping through a boat magazine last night and it had a caption on this boat.  Turns out Greg sold it to Wayne Huizenga and he is renaming it the Floridian.  He is also stretching it to include a helicopter pad in the back.  Makes you wonder if Greg is going to try and top himself now.  

Not really golf news but I thought it would pass it along.

[Mike Nuzzo]

It seems to me that the hands on architect, if talented produces a far superior product.

A far superior product for who?
Will they be profitable enterprises?
I'm not saying I'm visiting..it's the market apparently.

Mike -
It has hydroponic lifts that lift the big one and lower the little one through sliding floor like Enron Fields roof.

[Phil_the_Author]

Philip, you seem amazed as to the number of courses being worked on in a year. Is it possible that you are concentrating more on "27" than on what the work actually represents? Are these all 18-hole courses that will be completed within the year? Most likely a number are multi-year projects and others are renovations or additions to existing courses. That isn't to lessen the amount; to the contrary, it just brings into focus what busy architects can face. Still, what really impresses me is a comment below that i want to make to Cary.

Cary, you ask, "How can any architect be involved with 27 courses and do justice to any of them? If quantity = success, then I guess Norman has achieved architectual success.
It seems to me that the hands on architect, if talented produces a far superior product."

In your mind, why does quantity automatically mean a lesser or inferior product? Consider the work done in 1920 by A.W. Tillinghast. At a time without computers, internet, telephone systems, airplanes, interstate highway systems, he advertised the following as "SOME Work of 1920":

New Courses:
Baltusrol (36 holes)
Philadelphia Cricket Club (36 holes)
Cedar Brook (Philadelphia)
Brook Hollow (Dallas)
Suburban, (New Jersey)
Tulsa CC (Oklahoma)
Port Jervis (NY)
Kingsport CC (Tenn)

Reconstruction:
San Francisco G&CC
Fort Worth CC (Texas)
Dallas CC (Texas)
Cedar Crest (Texas)
Mount Kisco CC (NY)
Quaker Ridge (NY)
Norwood (NJ)
Spring Lake (NJ)
Upper Montclair (NJ)
Sound Beach (CONN.)
Glen Ridge (NJ)
Shawnee (PA)

And OTHERS in an Advisory Capacity.

Those courses make up an impressive career, and that was his year of 1920! Not bad.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Good response Philip, and it will be interesting to see how the Tillinghast club responds.  In the meantime, how would Tillinghast have designed better golf courses using computers, phone systems, and the internet?  Does the construction of a fine course require these items?

[Phil_the_Author]

Kelly,

My point was that he was able to accomplish what he did without these modern tools that definitely helps increase productivity.

The original thought raised was that Norman must be doing a near impossible thing by doing work on 27 courses in one year, and I cited Tilly's work as an example that this may not be the herculean feat that it might at first appear to be.

[Gerry B]

Philip:

You hit the nail right on the head re:Tillinghast. Same goes for Seth Raynor -he deswsigned /redesigned / built numerous courses around the US in a relative short period of time and did not have the benefit of the modern tools available today -let alone a G-4 or G-5 and a fleet of helicoptors at his disposal to make the travel part of the equation a no brainer.Having worked on courses in such locales as  Hawaii, Monterey Peninsula, Northeast and Midwest US, South Carolina, Florida and Bermuda, the extensive travel  must have taken its toll. Probably one of the reasons he eventually burned out, caught pneumonia and died at much too early an age. From what I have read, the amount of earth that was moved to construct the Lido club was a monumental feat in itself.