[Mark_Rowlinson]

I have a free part-day in the Paris area next Wednesday.  Unfortunately I am having to stay at a hotel at Orly Airport (due south of the centre).  Is there anything in that part worth playing?  As it's Bastille Day they may be closed to visitors anyway.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

This is not a reply to my own post!  It's more a plea for a greater input from continental Europe.  On GCA we have fabulous and copious information from North America.  There is a dedicated band of friends doing their bit for the British Isles.  There are some great posts from Australia.  But there are distinguished courses all over the world that I simply never get to hear about - particularly, most of Asia, large chunks of Africa, South America - yet even a country with so many historic courses as France is rarely mentioned here.  What is there beyond Chantilly, Morfontaine, St Cloud and Fontainebleau?  How do we get to know?

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Mark,
I played Les Bordes and took the train down to Beaugency in May. The course has hovered around the GOLF Magazine World 100 and was ranked number 2 in Golf World's Continental rankings. The course was very good, with an ideal setting. It seemed von Hagge drew a good deal on 80's style architecture, which is not necessarily as bad as it sounds.

It is only a 90 minute train ride and probably faster in a car.

Have you played it? The wild set of greens is probably worth the trip.

The sixth hole


The island green par five, 14th hole


The great 18th green

[Brian_Gracely]

Did somebody actually die trying to get out of that bunker, or was the entire course build around that grave site, or was it somebody's last wish to be buried on the course?

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Brian,
The cross is quite weathered, so I assume it was there prior to the course.

[Philip Gawith]

good point about golf on the continent mark. i have heard very little about spain or portugal either on this site. admittedly, they have lots of low-grade resort courses, but there are also many good courses.

[olivier]

Hi Mark,

July - August is a good time of the year to visit the courses around Paris as most of the members are away and fees tumble down. If you go to the site of the French golf federation at http://www.ffg.org you can find a list of courses by region.( If you manage to escape from the gallic boastings about Mr. Remesy's victory at the French open) Click on "Où jouer ?" then select your region of choice. Pay attention that the traffic on Wednesday may be heavy as the members will be heading south)
Most of the French courses are open to visitors, the notable exception being Mortfontaine but they may open their heart on Bastille day, who knows ! (Mortfontaine like Chantilly is north of Paris so not exactly close to Orly)

To contact them try
GOLF DE MORFONTAINE
60128 MORTEFONTAINE
Tél. : 03 44 54 68 27 Fax. : 03 44 54 60 57
 morfontaine@wanadoo.fr


Fontainebleau has a policy of guest & members only during week-ends / holidays but it may be worth a try to call them. They may also have a somewhat relaxed policy in July.

 GOLF DE FONTAINEBLEAU
Route d'Orléans - 77300 FONTAINEBLEAU
Tél. : 01 64 22 22 95 Fax. : 01 64 22 63 76
 golf.fontainebleau@wanadoo.fr

Chantilly usually welcomes visitors
 GOLF DE CHANTILLY
Allée de la Ménagerie - 60500 VINEUIL ST FIRMIN
Tél. : 03 44 57 04 43 Fax. : 03 44 57 26 54
 golfchan@club-internet.fr
 
Other courses of interest according to the cognoscenti. Let me know if more info is needed

Olivier


  RACING CLUB DE FRANCE
Golf de la Boulie - 78000 VERSAILLES
Tél. : 01 39 50 59 41 Fax. : 01 39 49 04 16
 golfdelaboulie@rcf.asso.fr
 http://www.racingclubdefrance.org
A 1km à l'est de Versailles
 
 Terrain : La Vallée
 
 Terrain : La Forêt
 
 Terrain : Le Coteau Compact
 
 
  GOLF DE SAINT GERMAIN
Route de Poissy - 78100 SAINT GERMAIN EN LAYE
Tél. : 01 39 10 30 30 Fax. : 01 39 10 30 31
 info@golfstgermain.org
 http://www.golfstgermain.org
A 27km à l'ouest de Paris
 
 Terrain : Grand Parcours
 
 Terrain : Les Genêts

 
  GOLF DE FOURQUEUX
36 rue de Saint Nom - 78112 FOURQUEUX
Tél. : 01 34 51 41 47 Fax. : 01 39 21 00 70
 golf.fourqueux@wanadoo.fr
A 3km au nord de St Germain
 
 Terrain : Bleu-Blanc
 
 Terrain : Fourqueux Compact
 
 
  GOLF DE JOYENVAL
Chemin de la Tuilerie - 78240 CHAMBOURCY
Tél. : 01 39 22 27 50 Fax. : 01 39 79 12 90
 joyenval@wanadoo.fr
A 5km à l'ouest de St Germain En Laye
 
 Terrain : Marly
 
 Terrain : Retz
 
  GOLF CHATEAU DE LA CHOUETTE
1 rue Montcient - 78250 GAILLON-SUR-MONTCIENT
Tél. : 01 30 91 23 91 Fax. : 01 30 91 23 92
 golfdelachouette@wanadoo.fr
A 6km à l'ouest de Meulan
 
 Terrain : Château de la Chouette
 

  GOLF NATIONAL
2 avenue du Golf - 78280 GUYANCOURT
Tél. : 01 30 43 36 00 Fax. : 01 30 43 85 58
 gn@golf-national.com
 http://www.golf-national.com
A 30km au sud de Paris
 
 Terrain : L'Albatros
 
 Terrain : L'Aigle
 
 Terrain : National Compact
 
 Terrain : L'Oiselet
 


  GOLF DU PRIEURE
78440 SAILLY
Tél. : 01 34 76 65 65 Fax. : 01 34 76 65 50
 infos@golfduprieure.com
 http://www.golfduprieure.com
A 15km à l'est de Magny
 
 Terrain : Ouest
 
 Terrain : Est

  GOLF DE FEUCHEROLLES
Sainte Gemme - 78810 FEUCHEROLLES
Tél. : 01 30 54 94 94 Fax. : 01 30 54 92 37
 barbara.golf@wanadoo.fr
A 18km au nord-ouest de Versailles
 
 Terrain : Feucherolles
 
 
  GOLF DE SAINT NOM LA BRETECHE (I am a member here but I am unfortunately not in Paris on Wednesday)
Hameau de la Tuilerie Bignon - 78860 SAINT NOM LA BRETECHE
Tél. : 01 30 80 04 40 Fax. : 01 30 80 04 50
A 8km au sud de Saint
 
 Terrain : Rouge
 
 Terrain : Bleu
 
 Terrain : Blanc Compact
 
  GOLF STADE FRANCAIS COURSON
Ferme de la Gloriette - 91680 COURSON MONTELOUP
Tél. : 01 64 58 80 80 Fax. : 01 64 58 83 06
 courson@stadefrancais.asso.fr
 http://www.golf-stadefrancais.com
 
 Terrain : Vert-Noir
 
 Terrain : Lilas-Orange
 

  GOLF DE SAINT CLOUD
60 rue du 19 Janvier - 92380 GARCHES
Tél. : 01 47 01 01 85 Fax. : 01 47 01 19 57
 golf.de.stcloud@libertysurf.fr
A 6km à l'ouest de Paris
 
 Terrain : Vert
 
 Terrain : Jaune
 
 
  PARIS INTERNATIONAL GOLF CLUB
18 route du Golf - 95560 BAILLET-EN-FRANCE
Tél. : 01 34 69 90 00 Fax. : 01 34 69 97 15
 contact@paris-golf.com
 http://www.paris-golf.com
A 15km à l'est de Cergy
 
 Terrain : P.I.C.
 

[olivier]

Brian,

The cross has been here well before the creation of the hole. For those interested, the course has been created by Mr. Bich (of Bic and many unsuccessful America's cup efforts fame) and actually sits on the familly ground. It is now possible to become a member there but for a long time only Mr Bich and his long time business partner, Mr. Sakurai, were member. The place has always been open to the public though. (I have heard that the green-fee went up quite a bit the past year)

Olivier

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Olivier,

What a helpful reply!  Thank you so much.

Mark.

[James Edwards]

Mark, Olivier,

I must say firstly to Mark that I agree totally with your post#2 and we should endeavour to talk about golf in Europe a little more - Im sure all our friends in the immediate West will appreciate the efforts made.  And secondly to Olivier, I think you have started a new category for the GCA awards ceremony - that of most outstanding contribution (by way of posting) to GCA or most thoughtful or helpful post - we all appreciate that kind of effort,

Cheers

[olivier]

James,

My pleasure, but contributions are somewhat hard to do when the exact slope of the third tier of the second green of NGLA or (substitute your acronym of choice here) is not intimately known  
Olivier

[Paul_Turner]

Are there any good aerial photography sites for France?  Like multimap for the UK?

[olivier]

Paul,

The "Institut Geographique National" may have some (http://www.ign.fr/affiche_rubrique.asp?rbr_id=1218&lng_id=FR)
other site http://www.mrw-zeppeline.net

Olivier

[Mark_Rowlinson]

What we need is the equivalent of a Churchill scholarship for a study tour of the hsitoric courses of Europe - my experiences in Netherlands and Belgium suggest that there is a lot of good stuff out there.

[Steve Okula]

Olivier has given good information.

The closest and best to Orly is Fontainebleau, (Tim Simpson) if you can get on.

If you can't, I'm the GCS at Golf de Joyenval. We're an hour (normal traffic) northwest of Orly. Next Wednesday is a holiday, but I can probably get you on here. We're 36 holes, RT Jones Sr. design. Nothing spectacular, but way better than nothing.

If your interested, write me at steveokula@hotmail.com

I would also be interested in more discussions on golf in "Old Europe".

[James Edwards]

Steve,

If only I could spare the time between these blasted assignments, I would love to come to play at your place and beyond next wednesday! 'nothing spectacular' pure modesty Steve.  

Mark,

I went on a scholarship with Cliff Stanfield from this website to the East Coast of the States back in 2002 taking in 35 courses in a month.

.... from Seminole Florida up to the Country Club of Brookline, Boston via, Oakmont(most Westerly) and am I right in saying Maidstone NY (easterly).  It was incredible as we played Shinnecock and NGLA in the same day as well as visiting Merion and Pine Valley in the same day, East Lake and Peachtree in the same day and Augusta and Cuscowilla too.  Pinehurst and Tobacco Road.  Jupiter Hills and Seminole, Sea Island Courses, Winged Foot East and West, CCC and Bulls Bay, Long Cove, Kiawah Island, The Dunes GCC and Harbour Town...


It would got me thinking......

Great Thread thought......

What would be the European Equivalent in one month be....... and how would you do it logistically?

[Philip Gawith]

james- who is handing out scholarships like that which sound like having one's earthly dreams come true! what do you have to do to qualify....?! sounds like a career in golf is a bare minimum.

[James Edwards]

Philip,

Its called the GRAND TOUR SCHOLARSHIP sponsored by Toro and run by a Bettina Schrickel for golf course students and turf grass students (but thats lenient), A German architect working in America.  It is for the West Coast too.  It is in August every year for 1 month and you travel with a companion - so 4 winners, 2 for each coast!

Its an excellent opportunity to visit all those private golf courses across the states which you would never get near unless you know someone.  You meet the superintendents and get shown round by them.

Email me if you want any more details..

James

[Mark_Rowlinson]

James,

Put me in touch with a scholarship and I'll plan your European grand tour!

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Mark,
Have you made it to Les Bordes? Do you think that it is among the best on the continent?

[Dan Kelly]

amd here I thought this thread was going to be about the lower regions of Paris Hilton.  Damn!!

Shivas, you surprise me. I thought you were into width!

Oh, that's right. It's that Paradox deal again.

[Paul_Turner]

Steve

Would love to see pics of Morfontaine, St Germaine and Fontainebleau.   I know you're a big fan of all of them and for all my research, I've found virtually nothing on any of them.  St Cloud looks like it has been screwed up in places by tree planting?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Ben,  

No I haven't made it to Les Bordes.  In fact I've rarely been able to play in France, despite singing there from time to time.  I did once manage a round at Cannes-Mougins where they used to play the Cannes Open.  It was a bit of a kit-built course - some nice holes, some weird, some dull.  But the nice thing was being paired with a charming German who lived in Mougins over the winter.  He introduced himself by announcing that he was an international rules official and referee.  I sliced my ball out-of-bounds on the 2nd (I'm a left-hander) and prepared to play 3-off-the-tee.  'They don't do that here,' he said, 'Just drop a ball in the fairway level with where the ball went out-of-bounds and play 3 from there.'  Later on I played a ball through a green into a stream.  I looked for a bridge so that I could drop out on the far bank.  'They don't do thata here,' he said, Just place the ball on the edge of the green for one and putt.'  

As we approiached the 18th I played a rather tired approach shot about 20 yards short of the green onto an upslope.  'You have finished where a friend of mine collapsed and died,' he said.  'He collapsed just there.  His wife and mine were watching from the clubhouse, dashed out to give him heart massage, but could do nothing. The paramedics arrived within minutes and were also unable to revive him. Although he was dead he could not be moved until the registrar had attended.  It was lunchtime, so they covered him with a sheet and players chipped over and around the obstacle until the registrar had finished his lunch, some two hours later.'  

He also told me that a certain Belgian monarch used to play here frequently but would never part with money for meals, drinks, caddies etc.  The club liked having his name on their letterhead and did not want to drive him elsewhere, so the club set up a fund to pay the caddies, settle the bar bills etc.  After the King's death the fund was continued and is today used to fund scholarships for promising juniors etc.

[Steve Okula]

Paul,

I love St. Germain. I believe it to be practically unadulterated Colt, one or two cases of clear tampering aside. Superb bunkering, even the hinky ones 75 yards of the tee add effect. Morfontaine (Simpson) is a genuine heathlands course that gave me the impression it was lost in a time warp somewhere around 1960. The site was perfect, pine forest on a 30 foot layer of sand, an architect couldn't go wrong. Simpson got away with murder out there regarding shaping and drainage. Some of the greens have the most dramatic undulations I have ever seen. The heather is used to great effect. But Colt still trumps Simpson.

To be honest, I was recommending Fontainebleau on heresay, but I will be going to play it tomorrow. I don't get out enough. There isn't time, life is too short.

St. Cloud was originally Colt, but I believe it was poorly seen to through out the years, and little of the original remains, apart from a handful of distinctive Colt bunkers. It is totally tree-lined now, but I don't know what Colt started with, either. Actually, I was impressed with some of the trees, they have some majestic old specimens of oak, maple, ash, beech, and so forth. Some of them must have already been there when it was built. It has undulating terrain, the first few holes are flat and then you go up and down and up and down. I didn't enjoy it all that much. St. Clouds is still a highly prestigious club, and very sought after. It's the closest one to the city center, and private clubs around Paris are about much more than architectural merit, being centers of social and business circles.

As for photos, I have a few, but I have not the time nor wit to post them. I never worked out how to do that, and no one has ever given me directions I could follow.

Steve

[Rick Baril]

Sorry I was late getting into this discussion - I just returned from Europe...

As it was related to me, the cross on the 6th at Les Bordes is a marker for a fallen knight that apparently, returning from some campaign, died from a nasty fall from his horse.  The family erected the monument on the spot where the accident occured.  

If you take the time to visit Les Bordes, attempt to connect with Jim Shirley.  Jim has been in and around golf all his life.   He will even be able to relate some interesting tales about working with Ben Hogan.  You will find him to be knowledgable and fun to visit with.  He started at Les Bordes when the course was being grassed and has been there ever since.  He has also designed a course next to Les Bordes which you may want to play.

I'm biased - but Les Bordes is definitely worth a visit.

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