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Mike Hendren

The Lion That Roared
« on: June 17, 2004, 10:10:07 PM »
The lions's mouth bunker on the 377 yards 16th at The Ledges, a mountain-top course in Huntsville, Alabama:

From 140 yards out:



Closer


Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

JLahrman

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2004, 10:14:43 PM »
Well, at least you only have one creek to contend with if you play out backwards!

Bill_McBride

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2004, 10:15:50 PM »
Looks a hell of a lot like the Road Bunker!  Who's the architect?

RJ_Daley

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2004, 10:21:14 PM »
JAL, well said.  MIke, who is the archie?  That would be a world beater hole without the double jeapordy of the creek.  So what if you get in the lion's mouth and have to play backwards?  If it were just FW cut and in a swale, it would be fair and you could play for a bogey with an exctracation backwards and a chip-pitch to a few feet for a 4.  But, with the creek, it is rediculous.  And, if you are off the sod wall far enough, you might even get it up and on the green, or look like Duval in 2000 at the Road Hole B. ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike Hendren

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2004, 09:58:21 AM »
The Ledges is a 1999 design of Hurzdan/Fry.  Fourteen holes sit atop a plateau at 1300 feet above sea level.  Four holes are benched into the mountain side some 200 feet lower.  The course is easily walkable IF you take the courtesy carts down to the shelf holes and more importantly back up to the top.

From a ball tossed into the middle of the lions's mouth bunker, I blasted to six feet :o  I did not try again.  There is more room to play sideways or backwards from that bunker than appears.

The following photographs were taken and are posted with permission.

The approach to the second green, an uphill 410 yards par four.  Ten minutes with the chainsaw and a tremendous skyline green:


From 140 yards out on the 560 yards 4th, the second of four holes that are sited on a shelf below the mountaintop:


Example of superior fairway contouring at the par 5 tenth.  The fairway swings right to the green which is left of the picture:


The 10th green from the fairway:


The reverse cant of the 14th fairway, a 400 yards dogleg right:


Another skyline green follows:


From 200 yards out at the 485 yards par five 15th.  Good risk/reward here with death left and long:


Though hazy, you can barely pick out the Saturn V rocket in the center of the photo down in the valley at the NASA space museum:


This is a course worth visiting if the opportunity presents itself.  A great setting, pristine conditioning and excellent fairway contouring are the hallmarks.  

Mike
« Last Edit: June 18, 2004, 10:13:44 AM by Mike_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

RJ_Daley

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2004, 11:07:48 AM »
Mike, your additional pictures really make me think this is a very fine golf course.  I will modify my criticism about the creek as double jeapordy since the terrain didn't really leave them any other choice.  You additional comments about there being enough room to go sideways out of that bunker without having to go backwards is more evident as I look at the picture more and try to imagine the actual depth of the two areas left and right of that bunker.  As you described getting yourself out of the bunker and to 6 ft, that must have been thrilling, and is obviously an indication of the notion that the dimensions of that bunker aren't over the top.  I might say that from pictures (which we all know don't really mean much) the 10th green may have a wee bit too much shaping-mounding.  But, certainly not to an extreme which I think many other architects would succumb to, i.e. Reeses pieces.  

It looks to me like Hurdzan/Fry hit a home run here.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike Hendren

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2004, 11:41:48 AM »
RJ,

A wee big too much shaping is an appropriate comment, with emphasis on the wee.  The general green contours are potato chip like, though relatively subtle.  My opinion of them probably suffered from my recent thrilling round at Lookout Mountain CC and Raynor/Banks' more subtle internal contouring and sharper external lines.  

Bottom line is that this is indeed a very fine golf course.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2004, 01:02:12 PM »
Mike Hendren,

I'll donate the gasoline, get busy.

John_Cullum

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2004, 05:09:09 PM »
A friend of mine who is a very accomplished amateur player was very high on this course, although I would not consider him an archtecture aficianado.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Tiger_Bernhardt

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2004, 07:19:02 PM »
Mike that is a very good looking course. Is it solid all the way around?

Matt Kardash

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2004, 11:16:36 PM »
Any reason why only that one hole has a sod-walled bunker?

I like the boldness of that green on the shelf. The bunkers aren't my favorite for my tastes, but overall it looks like a fun place to play
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2005, 02:52:21 PM »
How did I miss this the first time around?  I guess I was busy this summer celebrating my birthday when this slipped on (and off) the DG without me noticing.  Thanks for letting me know about it Mike.

The Ledges is indeed solid all the way around.  And yes Tiger it is that dramatic and good looking all the way around.  Everytime I go there I am struck with how much forethought (versus short term quick buck thinking) went into deciding what land the holes themselves would occupy.  They absolutely took most of the highest dollar lot areas off the market and put the holes on them.  Thus I think making sure that the course has staying power.  It captivates and keeps your juices flowing.  I love that all the members get to enjoy this cliff side property everyday instead of just taking the upfront cash of selling these as lots and then only the ones who have those houses get to enjoy the view.

I will also comment that on the obligatory try from the lions mouth bunker I dropped a ball slightly closer to the wall than center and hit it to about 4 ft and made the up and down.  So as intimidating as it looks it is eminintly playable.  One of my playing partners (who was about an 18) also got it out of the bunker to about 20 ft, while the other guy (about a 20) left it in three times.

I may post some pics here later. as time permits.
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

George Pazin

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2005, 02:58:42 PM »
The approach to the second green, an uphill 410 yards par four.  Ten minutes with the chainsaw and a tremendous skyline green:

A man after my own heart.

There is a similar cavernous bunker at a Hurdzan/Fry course north of Pittsburgh called Olde Stonewall (sorry Tom D). Set on a similar hillside, but with death down below (not just a creek!), it also is lacking in playing out options, but I thought it was easier to get out of than it would appear, so this is probably less of a problem that it would seem. OS is a very nice course (way too expensive for me, thought), but it doesn't look as good as the images you present.

I really liked the greens at OS - probably its best feature -what did you think of the greens at The Ledges?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 03:00:58 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2005, 03:47:40 PM »
The greens are not what I would call wildly undulating by any means there were lots of subtle breaks that I didnt always see though.

There are numerous opportunities for skyline greens out here since this might be the first "Skyline Course" I have ever played.  Unlike most courses that need the uphill orientation of the approach, The Ledges is unique in that most all of its skyline opportunities are on nearly level approaches.  The skyline effect comes from the fact that the holes are nearly all built around the perimeter of the cliffs edging the property.  There is nothing behind these greens but in many cases hundreds of feet of dropoff close behind.  I have pics of a couple more not mentioned before.

None more readily apparent than the slight uphill approach to the 7th green.  Here you wouldnt even need 10 minutes with a chain saw, just five minutes with a hand saw for most of these saplings.




Also the approach to the 15th Green could be another nice skyline green.



Even the 18th green is situated such that it realistically could be a skyline green.



You can see what has been mentioned, how unique the hole placements here at The Ledges are.  No less than 10 of the holes here play either right along the ledge/cliff or have the green situated with the cliff directly behind.  The course is also unique in that it really is not mountian golf as you might expect the geologic formation that the course resides on top is of a plateau with the shear sides ledge/cliff.  But the top of that plateau is nearly flat and thus the holes them selves to not cant to the side as you might expect from the "mountian" aspect of the course.  There are none of the funky holes that are forced into the side of a hill as you see at many mountian courses.  Mike mentioned the complimentary carts that they leave behind the 2nd green (usually 6-7 carts) for shuttling yourself down and back to the four holes situated on the lower shelf.  Beyond that the course is very flat and walkable.

Overall a very neat place.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 03:58:38 PM by Daryl K. Boe »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

SPDB

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2005, 05:41:55 PM »
Daryl - Neat shots. Thanks for posting. I don't think 15 could be a skyline green, even if the trees are eliminated. You would need to eliminate the entire hillside in the distance, which forms the backdrop (and I imagine probably some distant hillside behind that).

Its difficult, if not impossible, IMO, to create a skyline effect on a downhill shot, which the approach to 15 appears to be.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 05:42:13 PM by SPDB »

George Pazin

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2005, 05:50:41 PM »
Gotta disagree entirely with Sean here - I think "skyline" greens with the far off mountain backdrop, while not quite as desirable as the actual "sky" skyline, are very enjoyable in their own right.

I started screwing with the photos to give an idea as to what these holes would look like, but my Photoshop skills are not as good as I remember. Maybe I'll try again over the weekend.

Skyline greens are a feature I never tire of - whether its a land backdrop, a sky background, or even a far off distant water tower in the background. The point is, no immediate backdrop to "frame" the shot and provide a distance barometer.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike Hendren

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2005, 06:13:02 PM »
Sean,

The approach to the 15th in Turboe's picture is from the left so the far ridge would not be directly behind the hole.

This is a beautiful, well-maintained golf course, particularly on a clear day.  It is not without a few weaknesses, however.  With the exception of the 15th, I found the course devoid of any half-shot holes, notably a short two-shotter.  With the exception of the four ledge holes, the routing is almost universally clockwise with the result being that the bluff is always along the left-hand side of the fairway.  Not much variety in the distances for the 5 one-shotters either - at least from the tees I played they ranged from 170 to 190.  Neither the internal nor external green surrounds stood out.  Internal OB slightly encroaches in the landing zone for the drive on 18, as evidenced by the net guarding the swimming pool.  

All-in-all, a very good golf course.

Mike



Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

SPDB

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2005, 07:24:07 PM »
Georgie -
Perhaps we should alter the nomenclature to include the other green types you desire.

"Far ridgeline"

or, even better, using your own criteria:

"landline"

anything that aids depth perception, in my opinion, disqualifies the hole from skyline. I never said, as you assume, that such holes wouldn't be enjoyable or attractive, but as attractive as these features may be they don't make the green a skyline variety.

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2005, 07:38:26 PM »
Sean,

Not only is the hillside that you see in the background of my 15th photo many miles in the distance, I should have provided more background on the photo.  As Mike mentioned my photo was from off to the right, and I climbed up to as high of spot over there as I could find in order to be able to get some definition to the green contours.  So not only would that hill not be there, I think from the level of the fairway it would darn near be a skyline green.  I will have to look back through my pictures to see if I can find one from more of that angle, this was the clearest pic I thought of that green close up.  Sorry for the confusion.
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2005, 08:09:30 PM »
Sean.

How about this view of the 15th green?  


That is a little more like it right?

I have always wondered would they consider this to be a skyline green given that you technically have some very very distant land in view.  But you definitely dont have anythign that even remotely gives you any sense of distance or framing.  Granted it is usually just a hazy blending of the distant valley with the sky on the horizon, I guess I have always considered this type of view to be a skyline green (obviously I mean if the trees were all gone).

This is the view from your second shot if you have a go at it.  If you lay up into wedge range you will be down in the depression that you can see in the foreground and from there you would definitely be seeing nothing but sky behind the green.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 08:12:03 PM by Daryl K. Boe »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2005, 08:15:49 PM »
George got me thinking who needs a chain saw when you have modern technology....

Now granted I dont have Photoshop, but here is a very rough attempt at virtual defoliation using just Paintbrush....


The new approach to the 7th green sans-trees.

What do you think?
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2005, 09:15:16 PM »
OK, in case you cant tell all the girls went out for a neighborhood girls night out, leaving me home alone with the baby.  Once she went to sleep for the night (hopefully) I have been in bachelor mode.  Watch golf, drink beer, and post on GCA.  Man it is almost like three years ago.

What I am getting at is I obviously have too much time on my hands tonight, because I just spent the last 3/4 hour doing another fantasy skyline green at Ledges.  This one is the view from the second shot on 15.



Compare to the actual view above.  Pretty cool to imagine.  I assume this is similar to (but much more crude than) what a professional does for a clubs membership when they are advocating a tree removal program.

Since we have so many architects on here I would love to see the type of product they show their customers simulating tree removal.  Actual vs. theoretical stuff.

« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 09:16:02 PM by Daryl K. Boe »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Joe Hancock

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2005, 09:24:43 PM »
Daryl,

Good work with a primitive tool. ;D

I'm not sure I prefer the skyline versions, just for the sake of skyline. It would look like someone blew a hole through the trees to force the issue. Of course, without actually being on site and determining the amount of trees that could be lost, I'm not ready to say it's a bad idea, either.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

George Pazin

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2005, 02:31:42 PM »
Nice job, Daryl, those look better than my efforts.

I'd guess most golfers don't particularly care for holes that lack backdrops.

Hope you enjoyed your first Christmas with the little man. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Sam Sikes

Re:The Lion That Roared
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2005, 07:55:52 PM »
Mike,

You pegged the weaknesses at the Ledges dead on!  Every par four from the back tees plays between 404 and 459.  I don't understand how an architect could let that happen unless they wanted the holes to play different lengths everyday, by playing different tees, but at the ledges I dont think that was the intention.  I think this is a major weakness of the golf course.  I also remember when Hurdzan/Fry and John Cook were talking about the routing of the golf course, I actually asked them why the cliffs would all be on the left side of the holes.  They explained that it would be that way to accomodate the fact that "most players slice" , and they didnt want them to lose their ball on every other hole.  At that exact moment in time, as a teenager, I knew the Ledges would never gain the national acclaim the site was worthy of.  A huge mistake in my opinion.  Furthermore, two of the par 5s a play over 600 yards, which is totally unnecessary.  I think they could have designed the course to be a 6800 yard par 70 and used one third less space than they used in the end.  Instead, the course is 7200 with 5 par 3s which really makes it play about 7400.  I never understood the motive behind some of the Hurzan/Fry design principles.  Do they know what a great golf course is?  Because I think if they did, the Ledges would be one.

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