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Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Courses an Architect must study
« on: November 14, 2002, 05:01:18 PM »
If you were advising someone who intended to become a golf course architect, what courses would you say that they had to see around the world, before their education was complete?


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2002, 05:24:27 PM »
Two that come immediately to mind are Pinehurst #2 and Muirfield. Both are average properties with great courses. The strategies are outstanding and they both are courses with a great variety of options. There are better courses, but they may be the best designed courses. Just one opinion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2002, 05:31:37 PM »
Read the feature interviews on this site, T Doak, Bill Coore, Gol Hanse and all the other archie's, this was a standard question of Ran's. Also Geoff Shakelford and his books.

PV, NGLA, TOC, CPC, WF and Riveria--two other greats on average property
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2002, 06:05:12 PM »
Jeff:

In case you weren't aware, Tom Doak covers this topic in "The Anatomy of a Golf Course".

He has an appendix with courses worth studing for:

Greens Contouring
Bunkering
Routing
Other Courses of Interest

I'd recommend your friend pick up The Anatomy. Tom covers this topic as well as anyone could.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2002, 06:16:49 PM »
In these modern times I'll add that they study some modern classics.  Sand Hills, Shadow Creek, Pacific and Bandon Dunes, & Friars Head.  I would also have them look closely at Wild Horse in Nebraska and tell them what the budget was.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2002, 07:04:14 PM »
At the moment I'd recommend Shinnecock. Two distinct types of natural topography, holes with natural mid-bodies, minimally enhanced by architecture, wonderful tee and green placements, greens that are interesting, saddled well into their natural surrounds, very functional in playability and drainage, interesting and varied bunkering placed where needed and not where not needed, interesting use of waste areas.

Also a routing that was analyzed carefully to use both the topographical types on the site well as well as "planned elasticity" that should be analyzed in a routing sense by any architect.

A course that never tried to do too much architecturally and was very strong from the beginning that's made the course unusually enduring. An original design that has been very well preserved too.

A good example of a "championship" design that can accomodate other levels of golfers quite well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Derek_L

Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2002, 08:19:16 PM »
Jeff,

I think you better venture overseas if you would wish to be respected.  I have asked the same question to some of the greats of today and was told that a trip over to Scotland and Ireland sets one apart from the rest.  I plan on taking a trip to the British Isles in the next few years.

Derek
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2002, 07:29:55 AM »
All great thoughts above, and Joel hits on a big one re budget.  I'd add Rustic Canyon to this, in terms of getting the absolute most out of a small budget and not all that great site.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2002, 07:52:55 AM »
Limiting myself to ten courses,

1. NGLA -  variety of a) holes b) putting surfaces c) hazards d) hazard placement
2. Royal Melbourne West - fun to play for all levels (thanks in part to width) + the art of designing bunkers that are integrated with their surrounds
3. Pine Valley - any up and coming architect needs to understand just how great a 'great' hole can be.
4. Merion - the art of routing in a perfected state
5. Sand Hills - the art of uncovering the best series of holes from a piece of property
6. Riviera - perhaps the strategic masterpiece of all time
7. Friar's Head - an architect needs to understand that a patient approach can yield the attributes noted above.
8. Maidstone - for designing a cunning course rather than just a long one
9. Rustic Canyon - for highlighting the ground game and for giving players so many realistic options to ponder
10. The Old Course - the art of fall away greens + the benefits of the absence of framing + the merits of poor visuals

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2002, 07:58:18 AM »
i find it curious that noone has mentioned any dogs. Wouldn't or doesn't someone learn more from mistakes than from success'?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB*

Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2002, 08:01:41 AM »
For routing on a small plot, you must see Seminole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2002, 08:25:42 AM »
Ran:

I particularly like what you said in your #10 about TOC and the "MERITS OF POOR VISUALS'!

That has always been an element of design that has absolutely FASCINATED me!

But one that has generally been restricted and restrained in modern times by the concept, cliche or dictate that "Everything is right in front of you"  and/or the necessary idea of total "visibility".

Poor visuals, even with something like the distance deceptive "skyline" green, tends to make golfers really scrutinize and pay close attention to the nuances of the land, the design and the architecture and if they can't be completely sure of what they're facing, at the very least to suck it up and really "TRUST THEIR SWING".

The latter, I believe ("trust your swing" sans visuals) is something the older architects really liked to put on the golfer although they apparently were not too vocal about it, probably for obvious reasons!

Ross, for instance mentioned in his writings that he didn't recommend green surfaces that were not visible but the fact is he built tons of them!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2002, 08:35:07 AM »
TEP -
I always was amazed by the stories Nicklaus would tell about how he finds his way around the TOC, due to the lack of visual "targets." He would take the info his caddy gave him, in terms of line, and then trace it all the back to where  he was standing, and then pick a patch of grass that was usually 5-10 feet in front of him, and orient himself and his allignment off of that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2002, 08:43:35 AM »
SPDB;

Isn't it ironic then that Nicklaus became one of the foremost proponents of "total visibility" as an architect??

I recall him saying that he'd build 18 downhill holes if he could.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2002, 08:47:33 AM »

Quote
i find it curious that noone has mentioned any dogs. Wouldn't or doesn't someone learn more from mistakes than from success'?

Great thought, Adam, one that gets lost here all too often.  It is important to have a grounding in all types of courses... If all one ever sees is the greats mentioned here, one would be SEVERELY out of touch with the real world - how do you know how great Pine Valley really is if you haven't seen some rank munis?  And heck yeah one learns more from mistakes than successes.

We're all just far too polite to mention these "mistakes" specifically in this public forum, that's all.   ;)

TH

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2002, 11:07:42 AM »
Instead of focusing exclusively on courses on good or great sites, I'd say try a few on lousy sites that turned out pretty good in order to be comprehensive.

I agree with the courses on Ran's list, but would toss in Shadow Creek, Old Memorial, and the TPC Stadium.  (As examples, you could probably go see some others and still accomplish the goal - seeing how other's have worked with below standard sites, which may be more the standard today with housing and environmental constraints.)

Crenshaw (Ben, not Marshall) and Coore have a great business plan for building great courses, but not all can share their selectivity!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2002, 11:48:57 AM »
Huckster,
So true, and that thought can be applied equally to nearly every art form. . . . movies, dance, theatre, painting. Obviously, you need to closely study the acknowledged masterpieces. They are the cornerstones of golf architecture and an example of design in its most idyllic form.

However, now that I'm actually helping design golf holes, I find that there is nearly as much to be learned from examining the mistakes of others.

There is a tendency to really push the envelope when you first start conceptualizing what to do about a certain hole or individual feature, but I am becoming a great believer that the  dividing point between good and great usually lies in the subtle details. . . . . the little swale here, a fall-off there . . . . the precise orientation of a bunker to the line of play.

Anybody can conjure up land forms that scream "LOOK AT ME!!!!!," but its the little humps and bumps - or lack thereof - that make the difference.  Those are the things that stick out to me when I'm examining a golf hole.

And you can find something useful to absorb on every single golf course, from NGLA to the par-3 course inside the local horse racing track.

I'll tell you where I learn the most: comparing what makes say, this Cape Hole work better than that one . . . or how different putting surface contours and green complex orientations blend together on different Redan versions . . . . and equally importantly, which ones had seemingly great ideas that did not translate into the real world.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2002, 11:53:45 AM »

Quote
I'll tell you where I learn the most: comparing what makes say, this Cape Hole work better than that one . . . or how different putting surface contours and green complex orientations blend together on different Redan versions . . . . and equally importantly, which ones had seemingly great ideas that did not translate into the real world.

OK, where, oh master?  Do tell....  ;)

It was Adam that pointed this out, btw. I was just agreeing.  Remember me and original thought are strangers.

You are eloquently right on, as usual.

TH

ps - you three yokels made quite an impression at Shadow Creek.  Oh yes, they remember your visit quite well...  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2003, 01:53:09 PM »
(Another grreat olde thread that I think poses a terrific question)

  Of those I've played and was impacted upon...

   Talking Stick North   -  Flat but a lesson in how the brain sees depth.
   Carne   - the importance of restraint
   The "Other" Gleneagles (in Brora)  - Genesis golf
   Wild Horse   - Lesson in affordable greatness.  Enjoyable on many levels. (Great host and company helps.)
   Sand Hills    -  a nude golf course sculpted from a most beautiful model.  
   Bandon Dunes  -  An owner with a grand vision and a world travellable result.
   Arbory Brae     Hickory and Gutty - circa 1890 conditions - amazingly small greens - FUNdamental golf.  
   Barona Creek   -  Strategic driving with explosive bunkering.  Trees plentyful but sparse.  
   Royal Dornoch  - Pure natural, evolutionary grace.  Peak of perfection?
   Pacific Dunes   -   Truely inspiring golf presentations.  
   North Berwick -   Allowing uniqueness to be it's salient points.
   Prestwick -  Cuz it's cool, challenging and quirky.  
  
   (Skipanon  - I would like to study the plans before they start in on it.  They are still in wetland debates though.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2003, 04:10:59 PM »
I wrote a letter to Ben Crenshaw in 1980 and asked him this very question ... it's how we started corresponding.  (I kept it to U.S. courses then; he helped with the overseas scholarship application a couple of years later.)

His answers c. 1980:

Shinnecock
National
Pine Valley
Merion
Cypress Point
and Prairie Dunes
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2003, 04:55:22 PM »
Slag:

Feel free to go into in as much detail as you feel like in why you said "the other" was genesis golf. That's the kind of term I'd like to hear as much about as possible.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2003, 05:43:40 PM »
The best case restoration study of all for respect (or lack of respect) of architecture would have to be The Eden course at St. Andrews.

Brian.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2003, 07:33:06 PM »
NGLA  its a living architectural tutorial
Plainfield  great greens and surrounds; interesting par 5's; a solid test of your game that never gets boring
Cypress Point  
Pacific Dunes  fantastic flow, subtle greens, excellent bunkering
Rustic Canyon  demonstrates how great golf can be without charging $100/round. Incredible greens and surrounds. I knew when I saw it still in the dirt that it was going to be bring your short game and shotmaking or go home.
Stanford  great routing on a difficult piece of property (at least to my routing-challenged mind)
Stevinson Ranch  how to design an interesting course on a dead flat piece of land ( I would probably have Talking Stick or Shadow Creek here, but haven't seen them)

Sand Hills  haven't seen it, but purely based on the unanimous support of GCA guys, it definitely is a must see
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Slag Bandoon

Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2003, 11:39:04 PM »
Tommy, The "Other" Gleneagles is a li'l niner par 3 in Brora, Scotland that is a trip back in time.  There is no construction at all, save the holes cut and the greens mowed. And mowed is probably too high tech a word for them.  It was designed(?) by the simple folks who loved golf but couldn't afford to pay good money for the priviledge.  
  It is pure links and dunes land with renegade hares and bunnies, sheep and cattle and no hifalutin' fences around the greens like that other fancy course in town.  
  You want to see a rabbit den or scrape on a golf course, then this is the place.  Natural blowout dunes from wind and sheep and not by a backhoe are there. Just like them old guy writins talk about in them cloth covered hardback books.  
  No scorecard (unless you're priviledged; I got mine from the innkeeper at my B+B, Edna).  Unfortunately I was the only blessed soul out there but what a place for match play.  Luck/unluck?!  Here it is.  7000+ yard BS? Not even close.  Hit and walk to yer ball and hit it again.   Stimp? Generously I'd say 2 and varies from green to green.  No gimmies here.  8 inches to take the hole?  Better use your niblick.
  10 Time Winner of the Carnegie Shield, Jimmy Miller lives right next door to the entrance.  I almost got the nerve to go to his house and get an autograph.  Almost.  
   So, Genesis is the best word I can give it in that it's just simple hittin'-a-ball-with-a-stick pleasure with absolutely no pretense of grandeur.  I can see how the Scots would have taken to the game; pure escapism - from expectations too.  I've got pictures blazened into my mind of that place (as well as digitally).  

  Why should it be studied?  I can only say that it took me back in time to where our ancestors struggled and played.  And that I am only a blessed interloper.  

 "We are only immortal for a very short time."  Rush
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Courses an Architect must study
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2003, 04:00:49 AM »
Is it possible to take this question another step, is there someplace where a person could spend a summer and study, from that location, the widest variety of course, styles and architects work?

I would say yes, and this place is Long Island. Consider that a person could leave his home and drive within a short distance, say 90 minutes, and walk:

Shinecock
NGLA
Montauk Downs
Bethpage (all 5 courses)
Inwood
Deepdale
Lido (new)
Eisenhower Park (all three courses)
Hempstead C.C.
Garden City G.C.
Merrick Road Park G.C. (a 9-hole course built on a landfill in the 60's)
Fisher's Island
Indian Hills C.C.
The Links at Rockville Centre
and a host of others of various fame, quality and architects work.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »