Ron Whitten on Shinnecock

[MCirba]

Mike,

If it is true that Macdonald only saw North Berwick once, that only raises my admiration for his skill. What he built at National so thoroughly captured all the playing characteristics of the hole (except for the blind approach) at North Berwick. This should be evidenced by the photos Jon and I have posted. And it makes me question how the committee, with zillions of rounds of playing experience, could reproduce so few at Merion.

Bill,

Now you're getting it!  

Richard Francis told us that the hole's location lent itself to a redan design.

You'll notice which came first, the hole and it's location, prior to determining that it would be a redan.   As David has pointed out, the course already had been routed, tees and greens built, and grassed prior to Wilson going abroad.  

On his return the committee sought to incorporate the good features Wilson sketched and photographed from abroad on their golf course, and the fortress location, and likely the back barn wall that was/is still standing suggested itself as a place to introduce elements of the redan.

I guess they could have blown up the existing green and started over, just to make it tilt left to right and front to back but perhaps they saw no feasible way to introduce the ground game to a green fronted by a steep embankment?   Perhaps they didn't want to introduce the ground game?   Perhaps they thought direct copies were a bit forced and wanted something more authentic to the site and its heritage as a barn yard?   Perhaps they thought it would look hokey and unnatural to have a steep rise and then a green falling away in the other direction?  Perhaps they didn't want to compete directly with their friends Macdonald and Whigham and what those guys built at National?

Some have suggested here that perhaps the green was changed and I'm not sure if that was the point of Sven's early photos.   Frankly, I've seen no evidence of that and if someone can see that in those photos I think they are seeing what they want to see.   Now that we have a detailed topographical map of the green here that will hopefully end that debate.   You've played there and you're a lefthander Bill, and I think you'd agree with me that the green has no redan characteristics, correct?

As far as Macdonald and the version he built at NGLA, it's awesome.  

And yes, he did a stunning job capturing much of what's found on the ground at the original in North Berwick.   Originally he was disappointed when one of the members who was to be his host was unable to come and show him around, but the club scurried and found their most knowledgeable caddy to accompany Macdonald, who later commented how impressed he was with the caddy's knowledge of strategy.  

[DMoriarty]

This is a farce.  Mike is ignoring all that we already know about the history of the course, and is blatantly distorting a single account, written in 1950, to rewrite the history of how this course was created.  

Francis DID NOT write that the hole became a Redan after Wilson's trip.  In fact he suggests the opposite.  This hole was designed and built before Wilson's trip, and as Francis confirms that Merion's Redan had been "copied from the Redan at North Berwick." Before Wilson's trip, not after.  The hole "benefited" from the subsequent trip, but Francis did not say how it benefited (and frankly by 1950 Francis may not have even remembered how it "benefited," if he ever knew in the first place.)

A few indisputable facts:  
- This hole was designed, built, and seeded BEFORE WILSON EVER TRAVELED ABROAD.
- It was reported that many of the holes had been based on the great holes abroad BEFORE WILSON EVER RETURNED FROM HIS TRAVELS ABROAD.  

If the tee had been built and seeded, the green built and seeded, and the bunker already existed, then just what is it that was supposedly done to this golf hole in the summer of 1912 that turned it from just another golf hole into a REDAN?

[MCirba]

Bill,

It should be noted that others in the US built holes based on Redan concepts during that time period as well.   In 1908 Herbert Windeler and others at The Country Club (Brookline) determined to build some new holes in a wooded area they had procured.   

From "The Happy Golfer" 1914, by Henry Leach;

The tenth hole is a very delightful short one, with the green in a glade far below the tee. They call it "The Redan," because Mr. G. Herbert Windeler (long resident in America, but English in nationality still, despite his past presidency of the U.S.G.A.), who is largely responsible for the golf at Brookline, and designed and superintended the construction of these holes, had the famous piece of golf at North Berwick in his mind when he planned this one, but before the end he departed far from the original conception, and all for the good of the hole. When it was being made the place for the green needed raising from the swamp, and nearly two thousand loads of broken rocks were deposited there; and after soil to a depth of eighteen inches had been laid upon the stone foundation a splendid putting green was made.

From "American Golfer";

Then the second new hole, a short
one, which is sure to become famous.
Here the difficulties of construction
were fully as great as at the first hole.
Where the green now is, formerly
was an uncompromising marsh. This
was filled with the stone from the
blasting operations. The green sets
high and is banked by railway sleepers.
The shot must land the ball on
the green, for to be short means burial
in the trench filled with sand at the
base of the sleepers which rise almost
perpendicularly; on the right is a
brook and beyond the green are the
woods which will be out of bounds.
A very pretty iron shot hole which
suggests the —— at ——, but
we will not mention Scottish links.

Evidently the whole topic was a controversial one even back then!   

Here's the Redan hole at Brookline, circa 1909;

[DMoriarty]

Bill,

From a thread last year, there is a "plan" showing all the bunkers and their names that hangs in the starters hut at NB.  Here is detail from that "plan" for the area of the Redan hole.  This "plan" shows a routing that mirrors the 1895 stick plan, so it comes after the one Sean posted above.

From the plan, I'd venture a guess that the Duffers and Redan bunkers did not have sleepers

Bryan, thanks for posting this detail of that "plan" again.  What would lead you to guess that neither Duffers or Redan did not have sleepers.  I ask because there is a line rapping around behind "Redan" which might suggest otherwise for that that bunker at least.   Note that the bunker right of the green ("KAIMEND"(?)) has a similar line, and I've seen a photo of that bunker with sleepers.

Mike keeps posting the following photo, which (because it is Mike) he posts unattributed, but the caption from the modern articleit comes from is titled "Ben Sayers in the 'Redan' Bunker" from a modern article he posted.  Unfortunately that article doesn't provide a date.  Is it clear that this is the greenside bunker and not the real "Redan" bunker?  Also, the link to the image suggests was actually "sayers_perfection" which was a different bunker (and hole) altogether.

[MCirba]

Unattributed?   It came from the article I linked to about Ben Sayers.  

It includes a lot of good information pertinent to this discussion.  Such as;

Young Ben, a member of the PGA in 1902, entered the 1905 and 1906 Open Championship from North Berwick. George Sayers lived at 10, Quality Street where he had a golf equipment shop. George taught Lord Kitchener, the conqueror of the Sudan the game of golf at Archerfield. Kitchener played his first game at North Berwick in September 1910 with his closest friends Mr and Lady Winifred Renshaw of Instow. When Ben Sayers Jnr returned to North Berwick he took over the house and shop in Quality Street when George emigrated to the USA and was appointed golf pro at Merion Golf Club in Pennsylvania.

George Sayers contact in America was Rodman E Griscom of Berton, Griscom & Co. Stockbrokers, 40 Wall Street, New York. Rodman Griscom was a founder member of Merion Golf Club in Philadelphia and his sister Francis C. Griscom was US Woman's Amateur Champion in 1900. Francis came to Scotland in 1902 and was tutored all summer at North Berwick by Ben Sayers Snr. In August that year Ben partnered Miss Griscom in a match against Arnaud Massy and British Open Ladies Champion Rhona Adair. The match was halved in front of a large gallery. Rodman and Francis visited North Berwick again in 1906 and 1911 and were both under the supervision of Ben Sayers Snr.

Here again is the link, as well as the other one that points out that every single pro at Merion from inception in 1896 through the 1940s were North Berwick men.  

http://www.northberwick.org.uk/sayers.html

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/top-stories/us-open-venue-owes-much-of-its-heritage-to-north-berwick-1-2968247

 

[Bill Brightly]

Mike,

If it is true that Macdonald only saw North Berwick once, that only raises my admiration for his skill. What he built at National so thoroughly captured all the playing characteristics of the hole (except for the blind approach) at North Berwick. This should be evidenced by the photos Jon and I have posted. And it makes me question how the committee, with zillions of rounds of playing experience, could reproduce so few at Merion.

Bill,

Now you're getting it!  

Richard Francis told us that the hole's location lent itself to a redan design.

No, Mike. What I'm "getting" is that Macdonald was a genius at fitting his holes to the land. And Wilson was a smart guy, smart enough to solicit Macdonald's help in routing the course and deciding what parcels to purchase. I'd like to think that if I was charged with building a new course and Tom Doak or Bill Coore offered to show me around Stonewall or Hidden Creek, then come to my site and help me with the routing for free, I'd listen pretty carefully.

So Richard Francis confirmed that the already decided upon redan location leant itself to a redan. Big deal.

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

As for your post with the Leach quote, you are churning once again. We've covered this repeatedly. The hole at Brookline was a 130 yard drop shot, and while it was named "Redan" it was actually based on a different hole altoghether.  Here what Leach originally wrote about the hole, from the January 1913 American Golfer, with my bold:

The tenth hole is a most delightful short one,
called the 'Redan,' after the famous piece of
golf at North Berwick; but Mr. Windeler
had the second at Prestwick largely in mind
when he designed it. Yet it is a far better
hole than the second on the Ayshire links.

Did you get that?  It was based on an entirely different hole.  
_______________________________________________________

As for the photo you posted, I had figured it was from that article.  It was unattributed nonetheless, by both you and the author of the article you linked.    

Or if it was attributed, then tell me, when was the photo taken?  

And of which "Redan" bunker; the actual bunker called "Redan" or the greenside bunker?  

And why does the address indicate it was actually Perfection?

[MCirba]

David,

How is what I wrote incongruent with what you wrote in your own essay, reproduced below?;

Early newspaper reviews indicated that many of the hazards were yet to be added, with one paper also noting that Wilson had traveled overseas to find “ideas for the new course.”

A few months after the opening, Far and Sure also wrote that the course was still very much a work in progress; that many of the holes were still “rough drafts,” and Wilson had recently (“last summer”) traveled abroad “searching for ideas, many of which have been used.”

The “ideas” specifically described by Far and Sure were of the type that could have been added after the core of the course was built.

Many of the imported ideas of hazard formation are good, and the grassy hollows of Mid Surrey have been well introduced. On some of the sand mounds I noticed the growing of something which looked suspiciously like the bents of Le Touquet.

Hazard formation . . . grassy hollows . . . bents of Le Touquet . . . these are the types of finishing touches that Wilson could easily have added after his trip abroad in 1912.

Bill,

Why would Richard Francis bring it up for the 1950 US Open program if it wasn't related to Wilson's trip abroad he just described?   He told us that the hole "benefited" from Wilson's trip.   What do you think that means, he cut the grass nicely?  

I understand that you and David and Patrick are dyed-in-the-wool Mad-for-Mac's but it has nothing to do with the hole in question and its origin at Merion.    Merion had CBM come in and help them select their best of five possible routings they had designed prior to construction.   He was a big help.   Big deal.

[DMoriarty]

As for actual attribution to that photo Mike keeps posting, it comes from The Golf Book of East Lothian (1896) by John Kerr, page 339.  

The caption is "Ben Sayers Bunkered." Assuming this was the source, the modern author seems to have just added the bit about the "Redan."  (Apparently he is of the Cirba school of historical analysis.)

No date is given, but the implication from the photos placement in the book is that it may have been a photo from Sayers' famous match against Kirkaldy in 1891, or perhaps at one of the other matches discussed.

Here is the photo and caption from the Golf Book of East Lothian:

[MCirba]

David,

I do think it's funny that you seem to think if you keep referring to the author as "modern" in an oblique effort to discredit him/her, that we'll somehow forget that Rodman Griscom and his sister stayed in North Berwick under the tutelage of Ben Sayers in 1906 and 1911.  

Perhaps he invited his good friend Charles B. Macdonald to come for his first visit?

 

[DMoriarty]

David,

How is what I wrote incongruent with what you wrote in your own essay, reproduced below?;

You've got to be kidding, right?  Do you really not understand the difference between planning golf holes "based on the famous holes abroad" and adding finishing touches like fancy grasses, hollows, mounds, and maybe some bunkers?  

Think of NGLA if you can't figure it out.  The holes were designed based ideas and principles "based on the famous holes abroad."  Then, with time and experience, bunkers were placed and finishing touches were added.   Same goes for Merion.  
_______________________________________________________________________________________


Mike,  I refer to the author as "modern" because he was not writing contemporaneously with the events in question, and is thus not a primary source, but rather is just another researcher trying to piece things together.  Thus his apparent mistake/overstatement with the caption of the Ben Sayers photo.

I could not care less about your Griscom nonsense.  He could have lived half his life in the Lamb and/or Redan Bunkers for all I care.   It doesn't change the well documented fact that Merion went to CBM and HJW for help planning Merion, and that it was was CBM and HJW who provided Merion with the ideas for their golf holes.

[MCirba]

I had this article for some time but don't recall the source so shoot me for lack of attribution, but another part of this same article related a personal story told by Merion pro George Sayers so I would assume he's the source.   

If nothing else, I think it gives a good idea of how the challenge of the Redan hole at Merion was viewed at the time.



David,

I think it's funny that every pro since the club began in 1896 at Merion was a North Berwick native and Rodman Griscom, a member of Hugh Wilson's Committee studied there under Ben Sayers and you're still telling us that Macdonald gave them the idea for the hole.   Classic. 

You're a smart guy so you must realize how completely absurd that is, right?   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

What I take exception to and resent is your deliberate attempt to distort the facts and misrepresent what has been irrefutably established in previous threads on Merion.

My position has nothing to do with my admiration for the CBM/SR./CB style of architecture.  And I take no umbrage at your classifying me as "Mad for Mac".

However, I do find it comical that you've now cast Bryan and I into the same net.

You KNOW that Merion was designed and routed, with all of the individual holes determined PRIOR to Wilson's trip abroad.

So why try to imply otherwise ?

Why try to put forth a position that you know is false ?

This is exactly why I've called you both "disingenuous" and "intellectually dishonest".

Why are you doing this ?

To gain access to courses thru the Merionettes ?
To curry favor with the Merionettes ?

You look like a fool for acting as their schill !

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

No great insight on the sleepers.  The Lamb bunker had a straight line where the sleepers were shoring up the side of the green.  The Redan and duffers bunkers were drawn with more rounded edge and are situated on the sides of hillocks so I guessed that they didn't need sleepers.

If you have pictures that say otherwise, I'd be happy to retract my guess.

Re the following picture, I think, based on the background trees and hill that it is the Lamb bunker.  There are/were no trees at that angle on the Barricade bunker on Perfection.  Bill's picture from a similar but higher up and wider angle shows the bunker face and trees in the background.

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

.......................

However, I do find it comical that you've now cast Bryan and I into the same net.

........................

Uh, where did he cast us in the same net?  That's not comical, it's a travesty.  I want a retraction of anything that suggests or even hints that we're in the same net, or forest or clubhouse site or ..........       

[DMoriarty]

If nothing else, I think it gives a good idea of how the challenge of the Redan hole at Merion was viewed at the time.

At what time?  Given the article is unattributed it is pretty tough to say. Sometime after the west course was built, but that doesn't narrow it down much.  Whenever it was written, note that yet another author indicated that the green was meant to be a "duplicate" of North Berwick's Redan, and that the green sloped toward the traps.  Are you still denying that the green had a left to right tilt?

I think it's funny that every pro since the club began in 1896 at Merion was a North Berwick native and Rodman Griscom, a member of Hugh Wilson's Committee studied there under Ben Sayers and you're still telling us that Macdonald gave them the idea for the hole.   Classic.

And I think it is "funny" how desperate you are to credit anyone but CBM for the ideas behind the course.  The historical record leaves little doubt where those ideas came from.  Yet you keep throwing out these wildly speculative theories rather than listening to what we have been told by H.J. Whigham, Merion's board, Hugh Wilson, Alan Wilson, Robert Lesley, AWT, Findlay, etc.  In contrast your stories are NOT supported by the actual record, and sometimes they even conflict with each other!
  - For example, earlier you tried to convince us that no one had ever considered this hole could have been a Redan until after Wilson traveled abroad!   Yet now you try to tell us that it must have been Griscom or one of the Scottish pros who came up with the idea, and that it is "completely absurd" for anyone to think any different?   Well what about your previous attenuated interpretation of  Francis?   

- For another example, you are now suggesting that because a club maker/ teaching professional from North Berwick had been employed at Merion's old course, that this person must have somehow been responsible for the design elements of Merion East.  What about the crusade of you and your mentor to deny that any professional ever had anything to do with Merion East?   Not that it matters, because there is NOTHING in the historical record suggesting that Merion's club professional had anything to do with the initial design.

-And then of course there is this Griscom nonsense, where you making the leap from Robert Griscom having played the played at North Berwick (a claim I have thus far been unable to confirm) to the claim that he must necessarily have been responsible for deciding to use the Redan at Merion!   As if there was no difference between playing a hole, on the one hand, and studying it, advocating it, and building it, on the other.  If all it took to be a golf architect was playing experience, then we'd all be architects!   

You're a smart guy so you must realize how completely absurd that is, right?   

I am smart enough to remember the many times you have tried to indignantly dismiss my ideas, interpretations and theories as "completely absurd," and the corresponding many times that it turned out my interpretations were accurate and your outlandish speculation and indignation was flat out wrong.  (How's the search for that mystery Hugh Wilson trip going, by the way?  Or how about that mystery NGLA site you had stretching from the canal to Shinnecock Hills?  Or how about your theory that CBM and HJW didn't yet have a reputation for architecture by 1910? How'd that work out for you Remember your reaction when I first explained that the original course at Merion had an Alps hole?  Remember your reaction when I explained you that the 3rd was intended to be a Redan?  I could go on and on, but it would take up pages. If you hadn't quit the site and changed your name so many times, you could search your posts for the word "absurd" and you'd see how many times you called me or my positions "absurd" and been proven wrong.) 

In short, whenever you start throwing out these attenuated conjectures and start telling me that my position is "completely absurd,"  then I know I am on the right track. 

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Bryan.  I see what you are saying regarding the Lamb bunker, but if the actual Redan bunker had sleepers (as I think that the "map" might suggest) then the angle and background would be similar, would they not?   

[DMoriarty]

Mike,  One more point about this Griscom theory from you and the Stalker.  I've read Merion's Board Minutes regarding the creation of the course, read the reports to the membership, read every newspaper and magazine article that I (or anyone else) could dig up, read the various actual books (and fake(r) book) that purport to cover the issue, however thinly and inaccurately. In all of that I can only think of one single instance where R.E. Griscom was singled out for a specific contribution to the design and creation of the course at Merion. And admittedly, when it comes to the planning process (as opposed to the financing or the layout/construction of the course on the ground), R.E. Griscom's  contribution may have been the most important of anyone at Merion.

According to Merion’s Board, R.E. Griscom aided Merion's Site Committee in obtaining Macdonald’s and Whigham’s assistance. He must have known CBM, possibly from golf circles, banking circles, or both, and he convinced CBM and Whigham to travel to Merion in June of 1910 to go over the land and advise Merion as to what could be done with the property, and CBM and HJW continued advising Merion as to what could be done with the property right up until they approved the final routing plan. 

Ironic, isn't it? R.E. Griscom and Merion knew they needed Macdonald's and Whigham's help and sought that help, yet you haughtily claim that the ideas must have come from Griscom, and that it is "completely absurd" to think otherwise.

[Bryan Izatt]

Thanks Bryan.  I see what you are saying regarding the Lamb bunker, but if the actual Redan bunker had sleepers (as I think that the "map" might suggest) then the angle and background would be similar, would they not?

I think not.  The Redan bunker is built into the ridge that runs across the hole well short of the green and is angled more to the right.  You can see in this picture that there is a ridge rising up to the right of the player's head.  That would probably be the ridge that the Redan bunker is on the other side of.  If this were the Redan bunker in the picture there would be no ridge rising to the right.  There is no other ridge between the Redan bunker and the tee. 

[Sean_A]

I agree with Bryan.  The interesting thing in all this is so far as I can tell the Redan Bunker no longer exists.

Ciao

[MCirba]

Uh, where did he cast us in the same net?  That's not comical, it's a travesty.  I want a retraction of anything that suggests or even hints that we're in the same net, or forest or clubhouse site or ..........       

Bryan,

I'd never cast you into the same net as Patrick.   However, someone should clearly throw a net over the big fellow before his next green, mean outburst!     

[MCirba]

Sorry David, but I'm not going to get sucked into this morass again no matter how many times you follow me from thread to thread trying to re-open this turgid can of worms. 

There is no theory here.   Despite your claim of being unable to find proof of Rodman Griscom spending time under the tutelage of Ben Sayers at North Berwick in multiple years prior to Merion's opening it is a fact.   The fact that you're looking  and my speculation that you're now pouring over shipping manifests tells me you know it's relevant information.   Here's a hint though...his family owned the shipping company so I'm not sure you'll find it on Ancestry.com.

It's also a fact that every single professional at Merion from inception in 1896 through the 1940s were North Berwick natives, brought there by the close association between the Griscom Family and Ben Sayers of North Berwick.   No theory, just fact.

Richard Francis also wrote that the 3rd hole "benefited" from Wilson's trip abroad and that the location of that hole, with it's basement barn wall still intact, "lent itself to this design".    That's fact.  Would you kindly explain how you think the hole "benefited" after Wilson's return from abroad?  After all, Richard Francis was there and is providing a first hand account.   Francis also wrote that, "The Committee in charge of laying out and building a new course was composed of.."Wilson, Griscom, Toulmin, Lloyd, et.al. without a mention of Macdonald or Whigham.  Again, fact, not inference or supposition.

Hugh Wilson later wrote; "May I suggest to any committee about to build a new course, or to alter their old one, that they spend as much time as possible on courses such as the National and Pine Valley, where they may see the finest type of holes and, while they cannot hope to reproduce them in entirety, they can learn the correct principles and adapt them to their own courses.   Our problem was to lay out the course, build and seed eighteen greens and fifteen fairways.”

Another fact is that Griscom and Macdonald were friends through business and golf.   Having just spent several years conceiving, designing, and building NGLA it would have been wise and prudent for Griscom to ask Macdonald to come down and provide the benefit of his experience and study once Merion decided to create a new golf course, similarly amateur-led.   It would have also made eminent sense to go up to see his course at the National.   These were years-long relationships through the inter-city matches and business connections.   I wouldn't be surprised if Rodman Griscom was one of the men Macdonald sought input from "both here and abroad" in his polling of the best holes as he conceived his Ideal Course.

Your suggestion that there is no record of Rodman Griscom participating in the design process because we don't know what work he did for Wilson's Committee is again, meaningless.   We similarly don't know what Macdonald's design committee of Walter Travis, Dev Emmet, and HJ Whigham each did to contribute to the holes at NGLA.   To suggest that these clubs would have formed committees of amateurs to design and build their golf courses and then specifically recorded who did what on what hole for their greater glory or for posterity is absurd.

Macdonald and Whigham aided Merion in three well-documented ways.   Let's not go down that road again.  Thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Duplicate post, sorry

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

.......................

However, I do find it comical that you've now cast Bryan and I into the same net.

Uh, where did he cast us in the same net?  That's not comical, it's a travesty.  I want a retraction of anything that suggests or even hints that we're in the same net, or forest or clubhouse site or ..........       

Bryan,

Sorry, I inadvertantly substituted your for that intelligent fellow, Bill Brightly 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Which came first at Merion, the golf course or the Head Professional ?