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Jfaspen

A good Frank Hannigan article on Shinnecock
« on: June 12, 2004, 08:43:12 PM »
Talks about how the USGA could ruin the US open.  Addresses length, rough, fairway width..  Re-iterates a bunch of the talk that has been on this group.

http://www.golfobserver.com/features/hannigan_Shinnecock.html

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A good Frank Hannigan article on Shinnecock
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2004, 10:02:51 PM »
Having worked as a volunteer for H/&/B in 1986 at S/H I subscribe to H's thinking.  Why overstate the real estate?  It is already there, without the detailing!  Pardon the automobile inflo!
Willie

A_Clay_Man

Re:A good Frank Hannigan article on Shinnecock
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2004, 10:16:17 PM »
One tone I'd like to address came in this line..
Quote
If there are, say, 300 members, that's about $l7,000 per head ­ not bad for doing nothing.

I take exception with this apparent lack of respect for ownership.

Nothing?

 Do the members actually get cut a check? I find that hard to believe. SO why the mis-direction?


Alfie

Re:A good Frank Hannigan article on Shinnecock
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2004, 08:05:25 AM »
Can't argue with most of Hannigan's statements / sentiments, but I would take exception to his Carnoustie comments.

quote ; The last time we saw "pitch-out" rough at a championship was for the British Open at Carnoustie in 1999 when the R&A made a mistake so horrendous that it may have forever stained the reputation of a truly great course.

First and foremost, when the hell will apparently erudite golf reporters, editors, players etc.... get it into their heads that there is no such thing as the "BRITISH" Open ! We do have "THE Open" championship in Britain !

As far as staining the reputation of Carnoustie is concerned, please find another scapegoat Mr Hannigan. Carnoustie has, as long as I can remember, had a "recognisable" reputation of pitch out rough, along with dozens of others in Scotland. That's all part of the game. Get yourself into trouble, and you pay the price ! 1999 saw an exceptional Spring in Scotland which was unusually damp and mild which threw the agronomic plans of The Open organisors / greenstaff. That's called nature, and while I'd be the last one to stand up for the present reps of the R & A - I hardly think they could be blamed for what was a memorable Open championship in 1999 !
And just for the record, Paul Lawrie did WIN that Open contrary to the crap that was written to the effect that others (apparently better golfers that week) had lost it ?

Carnoustie's reputation is in tact and should remain so, unless it decides to pander to the prima donna's who masquerade as Professional golfers.

Alfie Ward.

rgkeller

Re:A good Frank Hannigan article on Shinnecock
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2004, 08:15:27 AM »
Last year's "Open held in Britain" at Royal St George's showed that the R&A could screw up a championship in drought conditions as well as during beneficial growing conditions such as at Carnoustie.

Gary_Smith

Re:A good Frank Hannigan article on Shinnecock
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2004, 11:48:27 AM »
Can't argue with most of Hannigan's statements / sentiments, but I would take exception to his Carnoustie comments.

quote ; The last time we saw "pitch-out" rough at a championship was for the British Open at Carnoustie in 1999 when the R&A made a mistake so horrendous that it may have forever stained the reputation of a truly great course.

First and foremost, when the hell will apparently erudite golf reporters, editors, players etc.... get it into their heads that there is no such thing as the "BRITISH" Open ! We do have "THE Open" championship in Britain !

As far as staining the reputation of Carnoustie is concerned, please find another scapegoat Mr Hannigan. Carnoustie has, as long as I can remember, had a "recognisable" reputation of pitch out rough, along with dozens of others in Scotland. That's all part of the game. Get yourself into trouble, and you pay the price ! 1999 saw an exceptional Spring in Scotland which was unusually damp and mild which threw the agronomic plans of The Open organisors / greenstaff. That's called nature, and while I'd be the last one to stand up for the present reps of the R & A - I hardly think they could be blamed for what was a memorable Open championship in 1999 !
And just for the record, Paul Lawrie did WIN that Open contrary to the crap that was written to the effect that others (apparently better golfers that week) had lost it ?

Carnoustie's reputation is in tact and should remain so, unless it decides to pander to the prima donna's who masquerade as Professional golfers.

Alfie Ward.

Alfie,

I also like Carnoustie. However, I recall some of those fairways widths in '99 being ridiculous, some of them being around 15 yards!  Do you think that was right? I think Philps (sp?) and the R and A should have trusted the course.

25 yard wide fairways at a windy site like Shinnecock is too damn narrow, and I've been saying that for a long time now. (not that there is anybody listening  :)) I fear we might be in for some overly defensive golf next week, especially if it blows, and that would be sad to see at our greatest American course. Hope I'm wrong.


Alfie

Re:A good Frank Hannigan article on Shinnecock
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2004, 12:38:13 PM »
Gary,

I agree that 25 yard widths for fairways is making a mockery of the way in which top level golf is set up. But let's not get confused as to who, or what the main culprit is ? You reap what you sew, and now both the R & A / USGA find themselves scratching at empty heads in how to find ways of defending their championship courses. Someone needs to tell them they're engaging in a futile battle against technology and that ONLY the roll back of the ball is going to rectify matters !
Hannigan's snipe at Carnoustie 1999, directly takes issue with "pitch out rough". I don't see any problem in testing the best in the game with penalising rough, although I've always been a believer in allowing a decent fringe rough before the nasty stuff on any golf course !
Shinnecock will be a great success because regardless of the set up, we'll have the world's finest competing over the same playing field. The pro's and con's of why the fairways are getting narrower will hardly merit commentary or air time because they won't want to offend their TV advertisers, aka the premier Irish clown Feherty !
Golf HAS to be defensive (and negative) because the offence is toooooo strong !

rgk,
Does any of this make sense ? And I do agree that the R & A could screw up ANYTHING ! But mother nature has a habit of buggering up the best laid plans O' mice and.... golfers ?

Alfie Ward.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A good Frank Hannigan article on Shinnecock
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2004, 01:59:18 PM »
Alfie,

With respect, I think you are wrong when you claim that Carnoustie was a fair test. I think young Mr. Philp was an arrogant poseur. Why an earth someone thought that he deserved an OBE for his efforts is beyond me. I will agree that Paul Lawrie won the Championship. His two 4 iron shots at the end were quite majestic.

The claim that the climate made the grass grow to its punitive height was arrant nonsense. His crew were fertilizing the stuff in April.

I looked up Philp's interview, I find his remarks concerning Duval and the money to be made playing golf to border on envy and particularly mean.

"Carnoustie run down and neglected  since hosting its last Open back in 1975 was described as a "sleeping giant." Philp, recruited from St. Andrews 14 years ago, has reawakened it. "My aim was to create a course for the millennium, to set a new standard," Philp said. "The players haven't got the game for it. David Duval said the only variation to his approach was to hit the ball a little lower. What sort of crap is that? They don't play links golf on any of the tours until they come to the Open. Christ, they don't know what a low ball is. We used to call them daisy cutters. This is the old style, the natural style. ...This is the true form of the game. You have to use the contours, the banks, the mounds, and swales. You have to think about it."

Philp, as you might have gathered, is passionate about golf and even more passionate about Carnoustie. His handicap is eight, it used to be two, although he admits that around the Championship course here it would be 28. He was recruited from St. Andrews by Jack Calder, chairman of the Carnoustie Links Management Committee--he died two years ago--and Philp's remit was to restore the sleeping giant's reputation. This he and his team of 22 ground staff have accomplished with a vengeance.

"In 1975 the course was shortened and there was hardly any rough," Philp said. "There was no penalty for being off line. Prior to that there has been five rounds below 70 in four Opens. When Ben Hogan won here he did his homework. He was at Carnoustie for two weeks walking the course, plotting his approach, taking notes of where everything was. A lot of the players who have been moaning this week have never been here before. They're the top guys in the world and they didn't think they needed to practice and prepare. They're wrong. This is the ultimate test and they just haven't sussed it. It's brought them down to earth. They've got to forget about the percentage shots and take the course on. Nobody will win the Open here by sitting back and playing conservatively.

"One player told me that this is the toughest course on the planet, but the man who gets aggressive with five or six of the holes will win. Christ, the winner gets [$3.2 million]. You shouldn't get money for nothing...."

Philp admits there are certain pockets of rye grass that are "horrendous." Philp added, "the rough is not uniform, but that's not what happens in the natural world. Because of the weather we've had phenomenal growth. At Muirfield and Turnberry the rough is up to your waist. I knew the criticism was going to come but we're not going to change the course just to suit them. The R&A are satisfied and they have stuck to their guns. People in the street have said, 'Good on you, John.' There's not been one complaint about the condition of the fairways, the greens, or bunkers. They are all world class."

Carnoustie has all the credentials and it requires a whole variety of shots. Many of the players are simply not geared for it. One bad bounce and they moan. I hope they will learn from this and take something home with them. They are talented people who can play the game but this is a different league and it requires a different game plan and a different attitude. The trouble is they have an ego problem. They don't want to be seen shooting 82 in public. A lot of them should be able to play here but somehow they can't force themselves to do it. If the Open doesn't come back to Carnoustie I'll eat my hat. It's unsurpassed."

COPYRIGHT 1999 Adams Business Media
COPYRIGHT 2000 Gale Group



Alfie

Re:A good Frank Hannigan article on Shinnecock
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2004, 02:44:51 PM »
Bob,

Thanks for that info - but I don't recall saying Carnoustie was a fair test ? It was there to be played and negotiated by all concerned, namely the pro's ! And for the same reasons, I expect Shinnecock to produce some great stuff this week ? Whether it will be fair - is another question ?
Having read Philp's comments, I find it difficult to disagree with him on most of what he said, whether he's arrogant or not. As far as honours are concerned, you'll soon be able to get one of these with 6 Cornflake box tops sent to HRH Mrs Windsor c/o The Big Hoose in London !

Paul Lawrie also played 72 holes prior to the playoff.

But I concede unreservedly on the fertilizing issue.

Alfie.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:A good Frank Hannigan article on Shinnecock
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2004, 04:28:21 PM »
Adam Clayman,

The member's never get a check.

What does get done is work on the infrastructure, capital improvements and expenditures that otherwise would cost the members vis a vis an assessment.

There are lots of reasons why clubs want to host a major, and the expectation of more than adequate amounts of money is one of them, then again, there are reasons not to host a major, and each club has to decide what's in their best interest.  It's often a contentious issue.

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A good Frank Hannigan article on Shinnecock
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2004, 04:48:31 PM »
Carnoustie was the last major with pitch-out rough?  What the hell was that at Bethpage?  

Jeff Goldman
That was one hellacious beaver.