While I've been gone ...

[Tom_Doak]

There has been rampant speculation here about the division of responsibility in my collaboration with Jack Nicklaus at Sebonack Golf Club.  Most of the speculation would be offensive to Jack, but fortunately he doesn't waste his time reading this board.  [Sorry if that offended anyone, but it's probably just turnabout, fair play.]

The funniest thing about this speculation is that THE SAME PEOPLE who insist that Jack has nothing to add to the design, really believe, deep down, that they would be able to make valuable suggestions themselves.

In truth, no one, including Jack and myself and all of the people who work with us, knows exactly how this collaboration is going to work, because we've never worked together before.  But we all understand that it is a most special project, and that we will have to put our egos aside so that the course can be BETTER than any of us could have done on our own.  And we both agreed to sign up on that basis.

I don't expect that it will be as impossible as anyone here thinks.  Every golf course that's ever been built is a collaboration -- between the architect, his staff, the client, the superintendent, the engineers, the contractor, and last but not least the property itself.  Both Jack and I are used to that; so all we have to do is get used to each other.

I wish people would stop speculating here about my true motives for things I've done.  All you have to do is ask me.

[Carlyle Rood]

Well said.

By the way, how do you pronounce "Sebonack?"  Is it "suh-BAH-nak?"

Carlyle

[George Pazin]

Thanks, Tom.

Sorry I can't help you with everyone's speculations - it's one of the few negative constants on the site.

Much like I'm sure some bozo will find a way to chalk this up as self promotion.

Thanks for all your contributions to the site. Try not to let the bozos get you down (worthless advice - I'm sure you ignore them).

Hope to see this project someday.

[peter_p]

Tom,

The simplest truths are hardest to see. You post belongs in GCA 101.

[JakaB]

It only goes to show that Nicklaus bashers are pussies indeed...

note:...sadly I will be in my car for the next couple of days so anyone wanting to dispute the above fact will need to wait for a response or call me at 812-890-9628 and let er rip..

[Jonathan Cummings]

wish people would stop speculating here about my true motives for things I've done.  All you have to do is ask me.

OK Tom, what are your motive?

[Dan Herrmann]

illegitimi non carborundum  

[Bill_McBride]

Tom, nobody could accuse you of being inconsistent.  That's the same answer you gave me on the terrace at Painswick when I asked you the same question!!

That was a special few days and glad I had an opportunity to meet you and the guys during the "Ryder Cup."

[Mike Nuzzo]

so where y'all been...

(I learned shortly after moving to Houston, that y'all addresses singularly and plurally)

[TEPaul]

TomD:

I don't really think all that many on here are critical of Jack or questioning of your motives. Somehow this website, as doctrinnaire as it can sometimes be, has been turned into a total caricature of itself by people like John Kavanaugh who seems so defensive, for some reason, about some of the so-called "modern" architects (exs Fazio, Jones and Nicklaus) that he feels it necessary to constantly fan those flames on here (just check out his post on this thread)!

I think this should be a fascinating collaboration at Sebonac--it sure seems like your diverse careers bring some interesting facets to the project.

And just keep telling yourself when you and Jack have even a minor disagreement about whatever---that you can hit a high fade just as well as he can!  

But what I'm secretly hoping is that you and Jack create some greens at Sebonac that you completely disagree how they'll break! If that actually happens we could be in for some truly fascinating architecture!!

[Smokey_Pot_Bunker]

Tom,

Best of luck to you and Jack in finding, shaping and grassing 18 holes out at the Sebonac site.  When all is said and done I think everyone here on this site will realize that the two of you working together will create a course that will stand up to it's wonderful neighbors and the great courses that both you and Jack have done in the past.

Just one Question,  When will the construction process begin or has it already?

[TEPaul]

Perhaps the greatest collaboration of architects of all time---Pine Valley, was certainly the better for it, in my opinion. Although most of them could probably be considered friends and acquaintances going in there really is nothing to say they were all of like minds in their architectural thoughts and philosophies.

[T_MacWood]

This type of thing is not as common today, but it doesn't surprise me Doak would give it a go considering MacKenzie appears to be one of his idols...his numerous collaborations were very successful. Jones-MacKenzie, Hollins-MacKenzie, might  be comparable to Nicklaus-Doak....the difference being Nicklaus is a very experienced architect in his own right.

Colt was another who made it work--with MacKenzie, Alison, Morrison, Rolland, Ross, Crump, and others. Again the difference being in these cases I doubt the identy of the lead architect wasn't in doubt.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Are you implying that those people rendering their opinions don't have any, let alone ALL of the FACTS ?

And that their opinions are nothing more then wild speculations ?

Has this ever happened on this site before ?

Good Luck

[JakaB]

TomD:

I don't really think all that many on here are critical of Jack or questioning of your motives. Somehow this website, as doctrinnaire as it can sometimes be, has been turned into a total caricature of itself by people like John Kavanaugh who seems so defensive, for some reason, about some of the so-called "modern" architects (exs Fazio, Jones and Nicklaus) that he feels it necessary to constantly fan those flames on here (just check out his post on this thread)!

Tom Paul...How about a few of these jewels from powerful people in the golf world....note I have no authority outside this site unlike those mentioned below..

From Gib...

Jack would be smart to show up a few times and bless what Tom's crew is building and stay out of the way. That way, he will get credit for what will obviously be a superb golf course without the downside risk of having caused a mess with his notoriously unyielding opinions.

From Jonathan...

Tom probably won't be able to weigh in on this for quite some time, but I find it near impossible to believe that JN will be anything more than a novelty factor at Sebonack.  He just doesn't spend the kind of time at any project to make a significant mark.  Jim Lipe is far more likely to 'roll up the sleeves' with Doak.  JN will perform a few site visits, sign his name to the routing plan and play on opening day with a mic clipped to his belt - that's providing that day doesn't correspond with a previously planned fishing trip.

We give far too much credit to Arnie, Gary and Jack as design influences.

JC  

So...Tom Paul...what do you want me to do..Is the above commentary what this site should be about...If it is what you want and you think this site needs more of that and less of me...just tell me..

[Joel_Stewart]

Has the decision been made on the construction company for Sebonac, if any?  

I know Jack derives alot of income from using his construction company and this may give us a small hint on the project.

[Tom Soileau]

Joel,

Jack no longer has a construction company.  Paragon, as well as all of Jack's other publicly traded companies were dissolved several years ago.

[David Kelly]

In my opinion Nicklaus is the greatest golfer who ever lived while Doak says he is a "nine point something" handicap.

Is it insulting to Nicklaus to say that while Doak is a great architect Nicklaus might just be the equivalent to a low to mid handicap architect?

Nicklaus gets great sites, great budgets and builds good to very good golf courses. I am sure Tom Doak works a hell of a lot harder at being a golf course architect than Nicklaus does so why is it insulting to Nicklaus to say that he is a far inferior architect?

[Joe Hancock]

David,

It's far easier to prove who the greater golfer is. A scorecard does not reflect personal opinion.

Joe

[David Kelly]

Joe,
Obviously you can never prove that someone is a better architect than someone else.  

Because Nicklaus was a great golfer does that mean that he is beyond criticism in everything he chooses to do in the game?

[Joe Hancock]

Because Nicklaus was a great golfer does that mean that he is beyond criticism in everything he chooses to do in the game?

David,

Obviously, no matter what any human achieves, it does not preclude them from criticism. My point is that we can criticize architcture all day long, and at the end of the day it will still boil down to personal preferences. But you knew that....

Joe

[David Kelly]

Joe,

Personal preferences is too easy an answer.   There has to be something tangible that makes Alister MacKenzie a better golf course architect than someone like, say, Ted McAnlis - that is if you agree that MacKenzie was indeed a better architect than McAnlis.

Nicklaus spends a fraction (1/2, 1/3, 1/10, 1/20?) of the amount of time on his design business that Doak spends on his.  IF their work is comparable at all it means that either Nicklaus is immensely more talented than Doak as an architect or he has:
a) a better organization
b) better sites
c) bigger budgets
d) a bigger name
e) all or some of the above

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Kelly,

Would it be fair to summarize your position as follows.

Tom Doak spends 100 % of his professional time on golf course architecture or architecture related topics.

Nicklaus spends his professional time, divided by a number of pursuits.

[Joe Hancock]

Joe,

Personal preferences is too easy an answer.   There has to be something tangible that makes Alister MacKenzie a better golf course architect than someone like, say, Ted McAnlis - that is if you agree that MacKenzie was indeed a better architect than McAnlis.

David,

Your last sentence in the above quote summarizes what I'm trying to say. As for your first sentence, well, sometimes we make things more difficult than they need to be.

There's a Doak scale, a Kelly scale, a Getka scale and so on because it is a matter of intangibles.

If I truly liked Nicklaus better than Doak...as far as golf course design went...I wouldn't have any shame in saying so, even if the smart people know I'm wrong!

Joe

[Joe Hancock]

Nicklaus spends a fraction (1/2, 1/3, 1/10, 1/20?) of the amount of time on his design business that Doak spends on his.

Some might interpret this to mean that Nicklaus is a better time manager...as a matter of perspective! I'd rather not speculate though....

Joe