Bunker dificulties.....

[Bob_Huntley]

There has been much talk of bunker raking and furrows etc.

I wonder if there are any clubs around that have a rule about animal footprints? Here at MPCC we have a rule that there is no relief from deer footprints. You might say that's no big deal, deer are small and gentle animals, however, during the rutting season our bunkers can look like minature battlefields.

We had a young aspiring Tour pro play in our pro-am prior to the A.T.&T. once, whose ball finshed  in a crevice about four inches deep. He whined for relief but was told in no uncertain manner that it was up to him to show his talents. He was one pissed off partner for the rest of the round.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Not to mention that MPCC has more deer running around than most wildlife preserves, much less a golf course.

[Guest]

Bob, the rules actually allow relief from animal castings and molehills and the like. That pro might have had to play by your local rules but your local rules may not reflect the spirit of the rulebook. You might want to check on that. In the end, you can set up your tournaments any way you want in and of themselves.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Was it a bunker or a transition area?  Here at The Ocean Course, we get everything from dear to bobcat to snakes to alligators traipsing through the course leaving all sorts of inconsistencies in the sand.  Here, you play the ball as it lies.  As Goldfinger says, "Strict rules of golf, Mr. Bond."

[TEPaul]

"He whined for relief but was told in no uncertain manner that it was up to him to show his talents. He was one pissed off partner for the rest of the round."

What a whiner! These are the types of golfers, all to common unfortunately, who fuel the thinking of posters on here like Dr. Scholl (probably just one of the endless names of the same anonymous "Dr" poster) who sarcastically defends the wholesale doing away with some of the things that made golf so interesting because of it's luck-laden unpredictableness in various situations. The anonymous "Dr" poster apparently has absolutely zero understanding of much of the spirit of the way golf used to be! And even if it was pointed out to him I'm fairly certain he would still have no interest in it at all.

[Bob_Huntley]

Guest.

Who decides what is covered by "and the like?" Has the USGA ever publishes a decision on this?

Mike Vegis.

Our dunes are your transition areas....no relief.

[ForkaB]

Bob

"Guest"'s comments about the rules only relate to "burrowing animals" which, unless there has been some horrible mutation recently due to some sort of emissions from the nearby power plant, should not apply to deer.  Furthermore, in that these problems seem to coincide with the rutting season, I would say that this is a clear case of "rub of the green."

[Bob_Huntley]

Rihc.

As always, like the mohel at a bris, you cut to the quick.

Bob

[ForkaB]

Bob

"Cut to the quick" hurts through my repressed memory, even though it is 56 years later and even though it was just a birth and not a "bris" and it was a qualified WASP pediatrician and not some evil "mohel" that did the deed.  Makes me want to crawl into a bunker, deer track or not, Raynor original or Rees restoration, just at the thought of it.........

[Dr. In The House]

TEPaul,

I love the way you call upon the grand old traditions of the game that made the game so very interesting in the past. Let me ask you this since you are such a noble golfer (I assume you play the game, if not, this is for all the others here who think they have tapped into the spirit of the way the game is meant to be played based on your intimate knowledge of the game of golf) do you play golf from a wooden tee on what is basically a flat teeing surface in golf shoes wearing a golf glove holding drivers that are no longer wooden but rather some other material designed to make your space-age technology golf ball fly farther and straighter so that the ball can land on strains of grass that have been developed to withstand global warming (oops, wrong thread) and lower mowing heights to accommodate faster green speeds than ever imagined by Old Tom Morris, New Tom Morris or any of you New Old Tom Morrises wannabes? You are correct TEPaul, I do not consider reliance upon footprints in the sands of bunkers or time as good strategic golf architecture. I don't like reliance on clowns or windmills either. But you can certainly feel free to take up my idea from the other post and let loose thousands of cats onto you course whenever you are feeling particularly noble and misty about the good old days of horse and buggy. If I only had a nickel for everytime someone here whined about the good old days on their way out the door to play the game of golf with the latest in modern technology I could by plenty of deer fence...

Now, having said that, I am sort of liking this idea of letting the deer have the run of the place. It dovetails with the stymie discussion nicely. If the deer take a dump on the green, just call it a stymie...but keep the towel handy.

TEPaul, since I know you take this discussion as a good sport, let me recite my new rub of the green toast to you, for you:

May the bird of paradise poop on your ball for good luck during your downswing (or is that for bad luck? I can't figure you what you guys think is good or bad luck or good bad luck or whatever)

[JohnV]

Bob,

Abnormal Ground Conditions are defined as:

An "abnormal ground condition" is any casual water, ground under repair or hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal, a reptile or a bird.

Loose Impediments include: "...worms and insects and the casts or heaps made by them, provided they are not fixed..."

Deer tracks don't meet any of those definitions so no relief should be granted.  At Pumpkin Ridge we would get deer tracks on the greens at times also.  I don't know if you had that problem, but the same rule applies there.

Having said that, Decision 33-8/32.5 does allow the Committee to make a Local Rule declaring areas severely damaged by non-burrowing animals to be ground under repair without marking it as such.  One example of this is up at Diablo Grande where wild pigs come down and root through the grass near some of their greens.  It is difficult to keep up with their distruction.  But, it should still be an area that the Committee would mark if they got the chance.  Deer tracks are not usually areas like that.

Guest, there is no relief from animal castings or molehills.  They are loose impediments and you can move them anywhere except in a hazard, where it would cost 2 strokes if you tried to move them.  But, if the ball moves, you get a penalty.

[Bob_Huntley]

JV.

The Bancroft Golf Club (Chililabombwe since independence) in Northern Rhodesia had a local rule; 'Free drop from hippo footprints throughout the course.'

Now that you mention it, any member coming upon a green with deer tracks is expected to repair them PRIOR to putting. Oops, are we doing the wrong thing here?

[JohnV]

Bob, you are probably doing wrong according to the Rules of Golf if you fix a hoof print on your line of putt, but that is one of the less egregious sins I've seen in local rules at clubs.

My favorite score card reads:

Play USGA Rules
Winter Rules in effect all year

[TEPaul]

"I can't figure out what you guys think is good or bad luck or good bad luck or whatever)."

Dr. (Whoever):

You got that right--you sure can't!  

[Guest]

John,

I have a couple of questions:

How can we not get relief from molehills if we get relief from burrowing animals?

Why are we allowed to fix ball marks on the green prior to putting but not hoof prints?

Are bird droppings treated differently then deer droppings?

Thanks.

[Jim_Kennedy]

"Guest"'s comments about the rules only relate to "burrowing animals" which, unless there has been some horrible mutation recently due to some sort of emissions from the nearby power plant, should not apply to deer.  Furthermore, in that these problems seem to coincide with the rutting season, I would say that this is a clear case of "rub of the green."

Rich,
Actually it isn't a rub of the green as that only pertains to a ball in motion being deflected.

[A_Clay_Man]

As clearly as RIHC sees it as rub o green, I see it as the hand of the golf gods. SHowing his inner self just from a ball in a hoof print. HA What an easy test and he failed. As for the greens, normal deer prints are usually a straight line directly across and it should only effect the first group of the day because they should take the time to tap most if not all down. Rutting is another matter and could seriously cause major damage $$$ to the greens and to your little dog too.

[JohnV]

Guest,

As I've said before, the rules of golf are simply lines drawn by a committee.  They get changed over time, but the way the lines are drawn right now is how we are expected to play the game.  If you don't like them, write a letter to the USGA & R&A Rules of Golf Committee, stating your objection and how you think the rules should be changed.  Do it calmly and politely and if you make a good enough point, it might happen some day.  Probably not in your lifetime, but you never know.

For some reason I was thinking ant hills when I read your post and replied to it.  Molehills are casts made by a burrowing animal and you do get relief from them.  I mis-typed earlier in grouping them with ant hills.  Decision 25/23 makes this clear.

Ants are not burrowing animals, but are insects so by definition their casts (hills) are not abnormal ground conditions.  Since they are essentially loose soil, you would not usually be allowed to remove them, but an exception was made for them.  The Rules actually are giving you a break by allowing you to move it.  Be thankful.

There was a time when ball marks couldn't be fixed, but in the interest of protecting greens, it was allowed.  Deer prints are a natural occurance and much rarer.

Droppings are droppings.  If they are loose you can move them.  If they are stuck to the ground you can't as the player in New Zealand found out recently.

[JakaB]

JohnV,

I really value your imput when it comes to rules questions...not that I don't like your general comments...Please tell me how you tell the difference between loose droppings and those stuck to the ground....I have found most droppings included that of goose...don't fully separate from the ground without leaving some residue...leaving the impression that they were not loose at all...this becomes more likely as the temperature rises.

Also please tell the New Zealand story...I missed it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

JohnV,
If it happens this Sunday that a deer charges across the green and leaves hoofprints at the golf event I am watching on the tube I'll bet that we will see a committee member out there repairing the damage before any of the competitors proceed.
You are part of your own committee when playing in your Sunday foursome.  

[ForkaB]

JakaB

I too await John V's explanation of the NZ incident, but in the interim let me reprise one of my oldies but goodies.

At Westward Ho! the card in cludes somethign like the following:

"Any ball interfered by horse, cow or unscattered sheep droppings can be lifted, cleaned and dropped (sic) under Rule 25.  Any ball interefered by rabbit, mouse, Canadian Goose,  Bobby Knight droppings, or scattered sheep droppings must be played as it lies."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob Huntley,

Some feel that exceptionally well manicured bunkers no longer present the hazard intended, and as such endorse a policy of reduced grooming and the acceptance of unkempt conditions.

Others feel that bunkers should be groomed once a month at the most.

Dr. In the house,

Do you feel that well groomed bunkers fulfill their intended function ?

Do you feel that equipment has diminished their effect on the golfers mind and his ability to play successfully from them ?

Should water hazards be made shallower, to permit play from them ?

[Bob_Huntley]

Rihc.

Scattered and unscattered sheep droppings, what's the difference? I am sure that only a Highlander would know!

[Dr. Know]

Pat,

Yes, groomed bunkers fulfill their intended function if they were designed to be groomed bunkers.

I cannot speak to the abilities of other golfers, a gazillion of which I have never even met. Personally, since I don't have a sand wedge, I just use my pitching wedge and cannot say whether I am worse off because of it.

Water hazards already range in depth from trickling brooks to the Pacific Ocean and everyone is free to play from them if they choose. What more can I add except I would discourage anyone trying to make the water hazard on Pebble Beach's 18th hole any shallower without first taking into account the impact on global warming.