Punchbowl Greens and fairways

[Patrick_Mucci]

On another thread Tom Doak mentioned that he recently designed a punchbowl green, I believe, on the finishing hole.

Montclair, Pine Valley, NGLA, Westhampton, perhaps Yale and other courses have this green type.

Many submit that Punchbowl greens can't be built due to drainage problems, but, with all of the earth moving, all of the knowledge and technology today, what substantive impediment exists in designing and building them ?

Is it their perceived unfairness, that a bad shot can be rewarded above a good shot ?

Is it their blindness ?

It seems to me that punchbowl greens are fun to play, so why aren't there more of them being built today ?

On a related topic, how many fairway bowls have you encountered on modern courses ? (exempting drainage bowls)

Again, with earthmoving techniques and modern technology, why don't we see more of these ?

Is it the blind nature of the shot from the bowl ?
Is it the uncertainty, the element of the rub of the green that some want to eradicate ?

Why are these fun features so absent from today's golf courses, especially when they flourished in the golden age, and have a proven track record of providing challenge and fun for every level of golfer ?

[peter_p]

Patrick,
If you had been at the Painswick GCA Ryder Cup you would have seen several. Shouldn't the drainage of a punchbowl green be the same as a similar sized bunker below grade?

[rjsimper]

Would 16 at Rustic Canyon count? Or are you looking for a fairway bowled on more than just 2 sides....kind of an interesting contrast - a bowled fairway and a crowned green complex...

[A_Clay_Man]

PAt- Is it their perceived unfairness, that a bad shot can be rewarded above a good shot ? Who gets to decide what constitutes good over bad?

It seems to me that punchbowl greens are fun to play, so why aren't there more of them being built today ?

I can tell you that Tom Fazio built a few of the greens at The Preserve, near Carmel Ca. with this effect. It was more understated than other punchbowls I've seen, and my initial reaction was more in the form of containment.  I think the use of one (maybe two) on a golf course is really neat. More than that and it seems forced. If that makes any sense.

The fifth at Wild Horse is an all time favorite with the coolest convex bunker front right, complete with fingers of turf. (we should really have a contest to name her, if she ain't already)

Baxter has a piece of one here at Riverview. I've used the kick all winter and spring and probably will have to stop soon, since in the summer, the grass is too high to roll out of.  

There's a steep slope (maybe too steep to expect a mower to get up there too often.)  The slope resides on the left side and isn't a real punchbowl, but has the effect by combining the backside high lip, of the left front bunker, with a hillside on the left, created one quadrant of a bowl. Which is all you need. Idn't it?

[Joe Hancock]

#5 @ Kingsley Club is a fantastic punchbowl green on a one shotter. Even a bladed 3 iron will find its way on the green. It's a great surprise to crest the hill and see your unpure shot laying on the short stuff.

Joe

[Jeff Goldman]

Is it possible that fairway bowls are out of favor because many, many shots tend to congregate in a small area, making turf conditions lousy?

Jeff Goldman

[Mike_Sweeney]

15th green @ Mountain Lake, the picture flatens it up.

[Bill Gayne]

The thirteenth at Dooks. A 150 yard par three slightly uphill. Quirky holes like this are great to come upon on an occassional basis.

[DTaylor18]

Mike beat me to the "punch" with the picture from Mountain Lake.  He is right, the picture does not do justice to the severity of that green.  Every time I play there it is a source of discussion. Some really like it and some don't.

Pat, I agree with you that it is a lot of fun to play.  The main complaints I hear are 1) it rewards a bad shot as much as a good one and 2) there are few pin choices.  I personally think it is a nice change.  Would i want 6 of them, no, but it is a unique type of green that is not as easy as it might first appear.  First of all, the green is blind, making the shot more difficult.  Also, there are many different ways to play it, do you fly it to the hole, play it off one of the sides?  if so, which one?  

[peter_p]

Have they lost their luster with the emphasis on stroke play?
As an opponent it might be devastating to miss such an inviting target and change the outcome of the hole.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat
How about the 4par 5th at Fosgate CC(Banks) in NJ? This is a copy of  the 9th hole at Hoylake in England.

I played a new course in FL- Venetian Golf & River Club- that had a 3par with a punchbowl green, among other architectural features. From Ron Whitten's review:
"My favorite, though, was the 220-yard eighth, called Punchbowl. From the back two tees, it plays over a wetlands and through a tiny notch in a solid wall of palmettos, pines and oaks. A guy playing ahead of me, a member, offered that the hole was unfair because you had to carry trees left or right or else the green wouldn't hold. I hit a high faded 5-wood over the tree-line on the left to the front fringe, so I have a higher opinion of the hole. But what I really like is that the forward three tees are another 45 degrees to the left, offering a whole different look at the green, playing right into the heart of it. Any hole that looks and plays differently from different sets of tees is a great hole, in my book."
www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/venetian.html

Steve

[Mark_F]

Patrick Mucci, from MARK FERGUSON, 9 WATTLETREE ROAD, FERNTREE GULLY, VICTORIA 3156, AUSTRALIA.  (03) 9 758-0004.  THIS IS A REAL ADDRESS, IN A REAL STREET, IN A REAL SUBURB, IN A REAL STATE, IN A REAL COUNTRY.

WE PRODUCED AC/DC, SO THAT'S HOW REAL WE ARE.

Please keep your boning knife sheathed.

I'm hesitant to use the old 'they used to play matchplay(when those old classic courses who have these features were built) and now they its strokeplay' line, but surely this is a prime cause?

Look at all the technology to do with clubs themselves.   Inherent in them is the idea that they will make you score better, not hit the ball better, which I think is a subtle distinction.  

I guess it would be pretty difficult to quantify, but when you take visitors to NGLA do they enjoy the punchbowl green
because that's what it is, or because it's a punchbowl green at NGLA?

In some ways it's kind of strange that they don't build more of them.  After all, isn't a lot of the marketing of golf developments in the USA built around the 'old world/links' connections?

Maybe there's also the perception that courses that feature such eccentricities will take longer to play, because of their far from straightfroward nature, and longer rounds are the last thing that anyone wants.

 
MARK FERGUSON, 9 WATTLETREE ROAD, FERNTREE GULLY, VICTORIA 3156, AUSTRALIA. Tel. (03) 9-758-0004.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I think the primary reason you don't see more punchbowl greens is because of a construction issue.  It's not the drainage OUT of the green most people are worried about, but the drainage ONTO the green, which is the heart of the punchbowl concept.

If you are building USGA greens in less than ideal soils, then when you are trying to grow in your punchbowl the green will be contaminated by the surrounding soils every time it rains, or even through normal irrigation.  Most architects can't reconcile the problem, so they don't build a punchbowl or even a "kicker" feature beside a green.

I'm sure, too, there are some uncharitable architects who believe that their courses shouldn't provide any good bounces at all.  My approach on the 18th at Cape Kidnappers was a bit different -- I was trying to get good players to aim away from the hole and play for the bounce, instead of just aiming straight at the flag.

Punchbowls also have the disadvantage of not being all that visible from the fairway in most cases, and we all know how unfair that is.

[TEPaul]

" I was trying to get good players to aim away from the hole and play for the bounce, instead of just aiming straight at the flag."

As far as I'm concerned this concept or technique of Tom Doak's is one of the true interests and strong points of his design style he's occasionally used which I'm not that aware  anyone else in modern times has used or to the extent he has.

This is the very reason a few of the holes at Stonewall 1 are so good, in my opinion. A number of them have this to such an extent that you actually MUST aim away from the green to hold the ball on the green. This is generally only true when the greens are as fast as I've seen them in some tournaments there. The best examples are #6 and #13 but others where you can aim away from the green or where you must aim to a particular part of the green to keep the ball on the green are #2, #3, #8, #15, #16.

[J_Dub]

I apologize for not knowing how to do this, but how do I post a picture on the discussion board?  I've got a couple of nice pictures of the punchbowl at Fisher's that I'd like to show everyone.

- Jason

[Jeff_Brauer]

My experience mirrors Mr. Doaks.....

I have built a few punchbowl greens, like 5 at Ridgeview Ranch, and they are popular with golfers.  In the words of one who voted that the favorite hole, "I can hit any club I want and still find the middle of the green!"  Golfer LOVE that kind of stuff.....

However, as Tom points out, drainage onto the green is a problem.  Many greens have 2-4 foot earthforms behind them draining across, but when you have 2/3 or 3/4 of the green also accepting 10 or more feet of drainage (hey, why not be bold if you are gonna do it) in a few years time, that extra drainage does keep that green wetter.  I've added tiles above the green, created small inlets (which kind of defeats the purpose) and other things.  Sooner or later, its like dieting versus excersize - if you want to lose weight, it seems to cut off the problem earlier if you just reduce eating, rather than excersize more.

I have many kicker banks and punch bowls with blue grass banks, when I would have preferred bent, simply because the grow in super was worried about soil contamination in the green.  Luckily, Futerra netting seems to help.

Tom Paul,  if you ever get to northern Minnie, I think you would find that I use kick in banks you describe, and the "hit it here to get it over there" philosphy as well.  I'm sure many other archies do too!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Painswick had one of those babies, 10 green, as well as many other fun unique features.

[Martin Del Vecchio]

Brian Silva has designed punchbowl greens on three of his recent courses in my area:

#15 at Waverly Oaks (Plymouth, MA)
#14 at Red Tail (Devens, MA)
#4 at Black Rock (Hingham, MA)

I find all three holes to be fun.  I think the pin placement is key; at Red Tail, almost all approaches end up on the back left of the green.  If the pin is there, everybody is happy; if it's front right, everybody thinks, "how am I supposed to stop it there?"

#14 at Red Tail is my favorite:


It is 440 yards from the tips, but because of the severly elevated tee, it plays shorter.  In fact, the longer hitters have to pay attention to the fairway bunker on the left, and the steep dropoff the woods on the right.  

After your tee shot, as you walk down the hill, your view of the green "disappears", and thus the name of the hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak & Jeff Brauer,

I understand the external drainage issue, but, again, with all of the earth moving techniques at your disposal can't that problem be easily solved.

The 1st hole at # 4 nine at Montclair has the entire fairway and rough ptiching toward and draining into the bowl of the punchbowl.  While the green is not a USGA spec green, despite some winter ice kill problems, the hole and punchbowl green still work remarkably well.

Adam Clayman,

If you don't know the difference, and I know you do, you shouldn't be discussing golf course architecture.
Bad shots, that are pushed or pulled usually fare far better on true punchbowl greens.  Thus bad shots, and we all know what they can be, are often rewarded above and beyond a well played shot.

Mark Ferguson,

Since I'm not a member of NGLA I can't take visitors to play the golf course.  However, when I'm in the company of golfers playing the golf course for the first time or members and guests who have played it frequently, there always seems to be a sense of enjoyment upon completion of the hole.

There seems to be an expectation, that no matter how errant the tee shot, recovery is possible.  And, in the event the approach shot is less then satisfactory off of the club face, hope still springs eternal that the ball will receive a kind bounce, offering the golfer a good shot at a birdie or a par.

I think that it is far more the uniqueness of the hole rather then the pedigree of the club that impresses the golfer.

Others who have played the hole can recall their experiences and the experiences of others whom they have observed playing the hole.

But, this hole is especially unique because it has two exceptionally large, below grade fairway bowls seperated by an elevated fairway spine, in addition to a wonderful punchbowl green.

With respect to your comment on match versus medal play, I believe a punchbowl green enhances scoring, hence I don't see either match or medal play unfavorably influencing the creation of a punchbowl green.

Blindness, and the rewarding of inferior approaches might be reasons for them to have fallen out of favor with modern day golf.   But, when done right, they're fun to play.

Dan Taylor,

Explain the bad shot being rewarded over the good shot to Adam Clayman, as he seems to be having difficulty with the concept.

I agree with you regarding limited hole locations, especially as the greens get faster, but, the hole location is almost immaterial to the general concept regarding the play of the hole.

In true punchbowl greens, the funnel effect applies to almost every center (donut) hole location, and few, if any holes are cut on the perimeter or toward the outer portion of the green.
Hence, the limited number of hole locations has little bearing with respect to the play of the hole, and the outcome of an approach shot.

I'm not endorsing multiple punchbowl greens on any golf course, but it would be nice to see a well done punchbowl green every now and then on a modern golf course.

[Mark_F]

Patrick Mucci:

Which hole at NGLA is the punchbowl you are talking about?  

Is it, and I know this is highly subjective, one of the 'better' holes on the course?

Maybe their exists some doubt, in the mind of architects when designing such holes, as to whether they will be appreicated.  After all, they are unique on modern courses and will surely stand out more if they are poor holes?

Greg Norman designed one on his Moonah course at The National, and although I've never played it, it  (the 11th)is the most spectacular, wild hole you could wish to see.  I find it difficult to imagine you could ever have anything other than a great thrill playing the hole, whether you shoot 2 0r 10.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Ferguson,

It's the 16th hole.

At the risk of sounding like cheer leader for NGLA, all of the holes are good, there are no mediocre or bad holes on the golf course.

# 16, Punchbowl is sandwiched between # 15, Narrows, and
# 17 Peconic, both very unique holes.

# 15 is a very demanding hole from tee to green to cup.
From the tee, # 16 looks more intimidating then it really is.
Once you understand the hole, I won't say it's easy, or that you're guaranteed a par, but it is rather difficult to make bogie or worse.  That doesn't translate to: it's an automatic birdie hole, but, the hole is very forgiving.

As you walk from the depression that forms the punchbowl green, up, way up, to the 17th tee, you're greeted by one of the best views in golf.  The golf course lays out in front and behind you and the view of the bay is marvelous.
The Windmill is prominent, as is the clubhouse in the distance.
It's a thrilling vista, one that few forget, and one that most long to revisit.

# 17 is also a wonderful hole.  Your play is greatly affected by the wind, which is usually at your back, but other winds can combine with the fairway bunkering to make # 17 a difficult driving hole.

NGLA is best appreciated in large doses.
There is a genius in the design that reveals itself to the golfer, usually over time, as there is so much to see that it would be difficult to drink in all of the brilliant architecture during the course of a single round.

While there are many wonderful golf courses in the U.S.,
NGLA should be high on ones list of "must plays".
You really have to see and play it to appreciate it's uniqueness in golf.

[Neil Regan]

15 and 16


17

[Patrick_Mucci]

Neil,

Thanks,

Sometimes a picture can be worth a thousand words, or two.

[A_Clay_Man]

Neil,

Thanks,

Sometimes a picture can be worth a thousand words, or two.

Pat - Re; Above. Huh?

and,

you said:
If you don't know the difference,
 and I know you do,
you shouldn't be discussing
 golf course architecture.
Bad shots, that are pushed or
 pulled, usually fare far better
 on true punchbowl greens.  
Thus bad shots,
and we all know what they can be,
are often rewarded above and
beyond a well played shot.


Pat- Are you looking at GCA
 through eyes in your head or
 the eyes of others?  
I take complete exception
 to what you intimate above.
I pull my shots on purpose.
I push my shots on purpose.
Are these bad shots?
Or are they only bad when
I push my pull, or pull my push?
The point Pat is,
 that the only person
who can define what was
 or wasn't a good shot,
is the golfer making that stroke.
 Not you, me,
or any superintendent,
gets to decide that definition.

And if having knowledge of GCA,
precludes discussing it,
I pity your view.

[TEPaul]

Neil Regan;

Those two photos of NGLA are about the most beautiful and crystal clear golf hole photos I've ever seen. What did you take them with?

Pat:

The punchbowl green--#16 NGLA really is pretty easy to approach as accuracy direction-wise to it is not that necessary---there really is so much more of a dispersion that will basically result in the same thing.

However, if that hole and that green had a normal fairway on it, I, for one, would not think half as much of the hole as I do, architecturally or otherwise. The real beauty of #16 (punchbowl) is Macdonald combined that green with two of the biggest and deepest fairway punchbowls I've ever seen. That combination is what really makes the hole brilliant architecturally in my book. From down in either of those bowls trying to approach the green you can see absolutely nothing of the rest of the hole---just the top edge of the fairway bowl and sky! The fact you have no idea where you're going from down there makes that super collecting BLIND punchbowl green all the more appropriate and brilliant!

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