Super Bashing?

[A_Clay_Man]

After some civil pleasantries I was confronted again, this time on the practice putting green at Pinon, by the superintendent who said " I read your website", "all you guys do is bash supers", "you guys don't know anything" and other statements about some collective (conspiracy) thought processies, that I failed to grasp, but one statement did involve the word, Doak. Realizing, for myself, I maybe too close to see it through his eyes,(a municipal employee lurker) I wasn't upset until, he said "That guy Ran doesn't know shit".

 Now, he got me.

 I went nose to nose with this guy,  two-minutes before teeing-off. (shot 37 on the front ) I responded with the only theory I knew, which was, "you don't know shit about how a golf course should play".

 I was then threatened  NOT to talk about him online,(that worked) "or else". I informed him, that up until now, I had been taking it easy on him. Honestly, I had always felt that he had enough to deal with. Now he has more!


Would some of you more worldly, please advise me on how to proceed? I have never been in a situation like this before, everybody usually LOVES me.

[Norbert P]

  I can't imagine anyone getting riled with the cuddly cowboy.

  Perhaps it's just a human nature thing where a trained professional, in any field, does not appreciate the notions and opinions of non peers.  Some find that they are under attack  even if they are, in reality, not.  Preloaded perspectives are a volitile and enigmatic dynamic.

  Galileo was scoffed at for his beliefs partly because he was not in the sophist circle.  He eventually surpassed them and their limited and accepted untruths.  

  Power to the People !   Question authority !
 
Beware the Shifting Baselines of creeping mediocrity!

 

[A_Clay_Man]

Norb-That's why I didn't mind being personally attacked, or pesonally lumped-in with all those who do bash(well I did mind that but not to the extent to get me rilled). I honestly like to think I temper my criticisms, and as Don Mahaffey has pointed-out, He'll sit and listen to discussion about the ends, all day long. But when it comes to the means, leave it to the professional.
I know, I have followed that advice.

Personally I have given-up on Pinon Hills. The way "they" do things and why, has nothing in common with intelligence, as I know it.

[Brad Klein]

Adam, I'm shocked to hear that golf course architecture and GCA arouse people's passions. And here I thought folks could discuss things like golf, one's career and course management in a cool, rational tone.

[Steve Lang]

 

Take the high road.. invite him out to play, see what he reacts to in the gca vs the conditioning and playability worlds and then ask what would he change, from his perspective and why.  

Try to understand what's really his problems, budget, time, manpower, equipment??  There must be something causing this mental pressure.

[A_Clay_Man]

Steve- I must confess I feel like I'm being set-up. The same guy came-up to me, one year ago and told me, to my face, he was gonna put down less water that year.  He says he reads the website, yet when I mentioned what Dave Wilber told me, he said, "Who's Dave WIlber"? Too many inconsistencies from one conversation to the next for me to want to spend my precious few rounds of golf left on this planet, with this person.

Dr. Brad, Funny, he isn't Italian or Middle eastern. Plus, you should see these guys playing the game. Fisticuffs are not unheard of in tournaments. Now, that's passion! How do you think Pinon Hill's story should be slanted? With the number of members joining across-town? (tripled in two yrs.) or the MPGA who was "squeezed-out" after increasing the funds revenue?

[Joel_Stewart]

I think its fairly common.  A number of people including myself have met people who say aren't you the guy on GCA?  I'm sure Tom Paul and Pat Mucci endure lots of comments.

I respect people in the business that are willing to comment on this site.  I have met so many that read it but are unwilling to post with most saying the people are argumentative. Kyle Phillips, Robin Nelson, Jim Engh are examples of people who read this site.  

As for your super Adam, forget it.  The people on this site collectively know more than he ever will.  You have learned a tremendous amount from this site and at least are one of the few that can challenge him on his everyday practice.

[DMoriarty]

Adam,

I'm not one to intentionally seek controversy, but perhaps your Super had a point, with regard to Pinion at least.  It has been years since I played it, but I dont remember thinking that the course was designed for the ground game.  Take the greens, many of which have three distinct levels set at odd angles.   I cannot imagine trying to hit a run-up shot up some of the huge faces between the levels.  

Perhaps I am misremembering the course?  

[A_Clay_Man]

David- Clearly a big part of the problem is the lack of respect for the architect. Ken told me himself that he designs most of his holes with open fronts. That is true on PH, save for one hole. And I just so happen to have been witness (on a daily basis) to a golfer who NEEDS those green fronts open, cause he can't get home, otherwise. Since most drain to the front, the early bird golfer better enjoy predictability.

The slight difference, between the needed firmness, to create ground game OPTIONS, is likely my entire bone of contention, when I said what I said to him, nose to nose.

In truth, I tell you that the bounce of the ball, at PH, off what most here would consider hideous containment mounding, is the most exciting, the most unpredictable outcome from a bounce, in this game. It can be golf at it's optimum for the creative shotmaker and to those who relish the unpredictable.

Now, I'm not such an ogre, who thinks the world of golf should have things the way I like them. I just feel any course should, and more importantly, could play differently, daily

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

Adam - Your Superintendent was incorrect when he said all this website does is "bash supers" and "you guys don't know anything". All you need to do is lurk around here for a while and you'll see the proof of that. Something must be bugging him, he came looking to pick a fight.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam Clayman,

I think Steve Lang has given you good advice.

Why not approach him and say,
"perhaps we got off on the wrong foot,
why don't we try to start all over on better terms."
Offer a handshake and see what happens.
If he refuses, you know you made a legitimate attempt to meet him halfway.  If he accepts, ask him to play golf or tour the golf course with you at his leisure.
Usually, when it's just the two of you, and you learn of each others concerns, problems and constraints, progress is made.

After all, look at all the progress TEPaul has made since I took him under my wing  

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat- I'm glad you opined. I was hoping to get your perspective. As I said to Steve, I'm not so sure, in this case, that would work. Because, the dymanics at work here are NOT normal.

I'll be the first to admit, I do not have the tact of a Winston Churchill, but I do know how to approach most people and discuss issues without conflict. Especially as DR. Klein has pointed-out, about golf, a non life or death issue.

I moved here to golf Pinon Hills. Now, I won't even consider renewing my annual. To me, that says more about the situation, than any anecdote.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Adam,

If you sat down with him, or golfed with him, you could probably learn about that living thing we call a golf course.  Since you are here to learn about golf courses, what would be so bad about getting a 4 hour one on one session?

Here is a different perspective....and I hope it doesn't sound like I am bashing my good friends Ken and Baxter...

However, Pinon is at least 15 years old.  It was built in a time of simpler irrigation systems in general.  It was built at a time when Municipal Courses were typically built on less than desireable budgets.

Ken and Baxter pride and prided themselves on building great, affordable golf courses. As a result of all of the above, based on what I have seen their work, they put in less irrigation than say, a Larry Rodgers would recently, especially given your desert climate.

Between those two factors, I surmise that the irrigation system is not very sophisticated, compared to what is available for increased control today.  I further surmise that as a result, your super needs to overwater some areas of the course to achieve proper watering elsewhere - i.e. to keep grass alive in your high desert climate.  With a typical system, this means overwatering the middle to get the edges.  For that matter, the most expensive systems split control between greens, surrounds, approaches and fairways, because each has such different water needs.  I bet Pinon has none of these upscale features in their irrigation.

Thus, "firm and fast" which is difficult to achieve under the best conditions is most likely very, very, difficult at Pinon Hills, and probably not worth his job to achieve, when most of his customers want green anyway.  Thus, if your super is telling you it just isn't possible, its probably very true - in his case.  While those of you in the Northeast may scoff, you may not realize just how different it is to grow grass in various climates around this great, and geographically diverse nation of ours.

As to the discussion about who reads this in the biz and why they don't contribute - this is a perfect example.  While Adam is being as nice as possible about a confrontation, I would say the general perception the architects I know who read this is that you guys don't have a clue as to everything that goes into a golf course.  You look at it through a very narrow prism.  

I hope I do enlighten posters with my professional perspective, while at the same time, I don't want to "cross the line" (that you guys think shouldn't exist anyway, but which I do) of critiquing another architectects work without a thourogh knowledge of all the facts.

I could very well be wrong in my suppositions.  I have a great respect for both Baxter and Ken, and the great work they put out there all the time.  After all, I do compete directly against them and know how often they, and their reputation beats my sorry ass!

[A_Clay_Man]

Jeff- Thanks for your considered post.

The irrigation system is the failsafe scape goat at PH. And it is exactly as you say, with the middle being mush, just to get the edges green. The landscape archie on the project, Bill Freimuth, went nose to nose with this same guy, years ago, and he is now blackballed from any more city projects.


My initial reaction to this issue, is long in the memory banks. My  opinion is that the course is more fitting ,when the edges are brown, because it transitions the native area, better. Also, the edges, are all steep, which exaserbates the problem of getting everything, iridescent green. As you mentioned.

If I were a states attorney, I sure would like to investigate this place with the skill and touch of a really good proctologist. I mean, How does one expect to get $200 conditions, for 20 bucks?

[A_Clay_Man]

P.s.  The customer? The number of customers has been in  decline for about 8 years now. But who knows what numbers they are using this year? In 2002 the city gladly accepted (never corrected) an award from a magazine in the over 50,000 rnd category. I have been told PH hasn't done 50k in quite some time. Which is really odd, since we play almost all year long here.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Adam,

While sprinklers look like they are throwing the most water out to the edges, distribution studies show that the most water falls closest to the sprinkler itself.  If you drew a chart of how much water falls where, it would be a triangle with the peak right above the sprinkler and the other corners representing 0" of water out at the edges.  

I don't know if you have Blues and Fescuses, but they can't get too brown around the edges, or they may die, and the pattern of the sprinklers just doesn't give them much water out there without supplemental hand watering.  I'll bet his crew isn't exactly set up for that, either.  

In order to get $20 greens fees, the city must skimp on both new construction and subsequent maintenance.......I try like hell to get cities to spend more one time up front to avoid long term daily costs like this, but it hasn't been a popular message.

It sounds like the course is ready for a retrofit of outside edge part circle sprinkers and a larger pump station, to get it in line with current thinking.  For that matter, the useful life of most irrigation systems is about 20 years anyway, so you may be getting a whole new system soon......They should start saving their pennies now, or add a $2 surcharge to the greens fee dedicated directly to the cost of new irrigation, for starters.....

[Don_Mahaffey]

Adam,
Sorry to hear about yout falling out with Pinon's super. To be fair, I don't think everyone here understands the pressure to "keep it green". We get a lot more pressure about color then we do about keeping it firm and fast most of the time. Cool season turf with alkaline soils and irrigation water high in salts in a dry climate leads to a soft course much of the time. Throw in poor drainage, an older irrigation system, and inadequate resources to do a lot of hand watering and hose dragging and the challenges to keep a course like that firm and fast all the time are tough to overcome.
Also, how would we all react if our work was open to national scurtiny on a web site like this? I'm amazed at how well the archies here accept critiques of their work. We supers hear all the bad stuff on a daily basis and while we learn to live with it, it really does get old when most don't understand that much of what they are unhappy with is beyond our control. If the course wasn't built with f & f as a primary objective, then it's going to be very tough to keep it that way, and "glow in the dark green" as my wife calls it, all the time. I hope you guys are able to mend fences and work together to make PH a better place.
Best of luck, Don

[Craig Van Egmond]

Thanks Adam, Jeff and Don for a great thread and trying to give all sides of the discussion. This is one of the best parts of GCA.

I want to go on record that the Super at my home course, a muni called Lakeside Memorial here in Stillwater, OK is doing a fabulous job!! A $20.00 course and it is in fantastic shape, fairways firm, greens excellent. My only knock is that they continue to plant more trees. Whatever we are paying him it is probably not enough.

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

As you know I am a BIG fan of the course architecture at Pinon but when I played it again for the first time in several years I was kind of miffed that the nines were switched simply to accomodate course staff to watch people playing at the 1st (formely the 10th hole).

You had mentioned prior to my coming to Pinon Hills that the course had less water being applied by man's hand in '03 than in previous years. Unfortunately, as I mentioned to you after my round the situation with water is still towards the high side.

Even in saying that I do concur with Don's comments. Clearly, the pressur to keep courses "green" 24/7 is always present and superintendents to want to take the "safe / prudent" route and that means give the bulk of the customers what they want -- which typically means lush fairways and greens that may even accept fairway metal shots from the fairways!

Pinon is a superb Ken Dye design and it really can't be beat for the value it provides golfers on a tight budget.

I concur with Pat's comments in meeting with your superintendent because if he has not traveled as widely to see what's "out there" than he needs to understand that people like Ran and others do visit and see many more courses than is typical of most players.

But, I will also add this -- a number of superintendents have a thin skins / rabbit ears and the least little bit of criticism for these types of individuals will always mean a defensive response. I know plenty of people in the profession who are excellent at growing grass but it's a rare bird who completely and thoroughly understands the connection between growing grass and the fundamentals in how golf is supposed to be played.

It's possible that over a good brew following 18 holes together you can learn from each other. I'll kep my fingers crossed because I'm ever the optimist in such matters.

[Rick Shefchik]

For what it's worth, I'm kind of in the "life's too short to try to mend fences with arseholes" camp. He confronted you; you didn't seek out a fight with this guy, so I don't see much prospect that anything you do -- short of agreeing with every one of his opinions -- will change your relationship.

Some people are too sensitive to criticism for the career they've chose. I think you've encountered one.

[RJ_Daley]

I think the relationship malfunction that seems to have occured between Adam and the local super has its origins in the atmosphere that breeds job insecurity that supers face throughout the country.  The perception by the general public that lush green translates to good, and anything brown and baked out is an indication of the super's lack of ability.  

Jeff's explanation of what may be the primary flaw (lack of an adequately designed irrigation system from the git-go) is understandable to be an impediment to the super providing more consistently F&F, rather than soft, lush and green conditions.  The high altitude, less favorable growing conditions, with alkaline soils requiring high water input, and single row w/overlap in the center of the water distribution circles is systemic and had been the common negative feature of all those single row systems for 50 years.

I think Jeff is right on about the failure of vision of the course developers/city planners in the first place to add a better system with higher short term construction cost and lower on-going maintenance and better control of the system for more site specific turf management.  What would really be an indictment of incompetence is (not the super's performance) but when the irrigation system replacement as it reaches the end of its useful life cycle, as Jeff mentions.  If the city again goes for the cheapest and most useless minimal irrigation, then a pox on them.  They would then perpetuate the super's troubles to manage for optimal design maintenance meld, and would show a total lack of wisdom not to learn from past mistakes of being penny wise and dollar foolish.  

But another thing that bothers me about reading this account of the encounters with Adam and the Super is that if no one would speak up like Adam has to champion the cause of proper design maintenance meld, then the status quo would remain, and there would be no incentive to FIX the problem when they have the chance to do so, next irrigation system replacement cycle.  Budget short sightedness makes the course designers work look less than it was intended to be.  It doesn't offer the golfing public a chance to experience the full measure of how good the game can be.  It perpetuates the myths of soft/lush green is good, and makes the bar higher for all supers to meet misguided expectations.  They should look at Adam's criticism as a catalyst and challenge to provide better, when the time comes to re-invest in the system.  And, as a municipal golf course, they OWE it to make sure that Adam is not ostricized from this community owned facility, just because he has an opinion and a challenge to them that they can do better.  After all, Adam has also been an advocate of the design merrits of PH, and probably has brought more people to that isolated community to check it out, than any negative comments on the maintenanc practices may have cause ruffled feathers of management there.

[John Gosselin]

" I know plenty of people in the profession who are excellent at growing grass but it's a rare bird who completely and thoroughly understands the connection between growing grass and the fundamentals in how golf is supposed to be played."

Matt, help me out on this one. I have struggled over the years to try and find some ideal playing conditions that the general golfing public can agree on. I assume you would like to see firmer, dryer playing conditions at your club, so you can play the game "how it is supposed to be played". Do you think that would make everyone happy?

When your get the golf course the way you want it I would suggest you talk with the Chef and make sure the kitchen staff never cooks any steak past medium rare, because that's how steak is supposed to be eaten. Any steak cooked beyond that is ruined and we need to protect those imbeciles who may like it prepared a different way because they just know better.

Seriously, most of the GCS I talk to basically try to apply as little water as possible and still keep the turf alive for several reasons not just playability. What everyone needs to realize is that firm, fast conditions doesn’t make everyone happy. I have been told that the fairways were to hard, to soft, and just right not only on the same day, but also within the same hour. Just shows you the diverse thinking amongst golfers. As far as greens are concerned, I am still looking for that green that will hold a 3 wood from 110 yards that never goes over 10ft in the air for one foursome and one that is so firm that an approach shot hit to the middle of the green bounces 10ft in the air and runs off the back of the green for the next.  

I am not defending the GCS in this thread nor commenting on what is happening at that particular club, just pointing out "how golf is supposed to be played" is more complicated that turning off the irrigation system.

[Matt_Ward]

John S:

Here's what it boils down to -- many superintendents, no less than other folks, are creature of habits -- they also understand that it's best to give the majority of the customers what they want even when it flies in the face of what golf should be. Job security takes precedence over stepping out on a limb.

Too many courses simply overwater because if anything else should occur a good number of superintendents are beaten over the head with the belief that green is good. That no matter what else -- douse the course with water because people who play golf (as opposed to golfers) want to feel that lush turf under their feet.

I certainly concur with the comments made to me by Steve Cadenelli -- former president of the GCSAA when I interviewed him a few years back -- he said, "You only water to keep grass alive" -- nothing more and nothing less.

I visit and play a good number of courses per year and it amazes me how many superintendents will take the "safe" approach and inundate the layout with water. I mean I know of facilities in Northern NJ that will have drives nearly plug in the fairways even after dry conditions have persisted for some time.

The enemy for these folks is the color brown. Instead of spending some valuable time with the key leaders at the club and eventually disseminating information via newsletters / e-mails to the membership the approach is usually the same year after year -- pump more water and rid any element of brown on the playing turf.

John -- let's talk a bit about job specifics. I'm a writer -- I get paid in meeting deadlines and in being precise to the total length and substance of what I produce. I have to follow very strict guidelines in the writing business on what I do and when I submit it. If I don't -- to use your analogy -- then the steak for me will not be on the table period!

Why is the situation with superintendents any different? Why do a number of your folks take the defensive posture and simply shake one's head and proclaim that we as golfers "don't get it" with what you and others are facing. I'm here to play golf -- not to have some nature preserve that's testament to the desire to keep everything verdant green.

Clearly, if superintendents allow themselves to get caught up in a Gallup poll approach and listen to every Tom, Dick and Harry about how the course is prepared then nothing of real substance will take place. The average Joe and Jane really don't know golf any more than I understand how the rockets fly at NASA.

The game of golf is about allowing for some degree for the bounce of the ball. Clearly, the strains of bermuda and zoysia do not allow for much of this during the summer months, but in most other areas of the country I can't see why most of the other courses have to water to the point of absurdity.

John -- you say the issue is more complicated than it appears. For the purposes of discussion let's say I agree with you to a degree -- but how bout a number of folks in the field learn to curtail water usage and allow the courses to play more naturally and for golfers at those facilities to learn how to play a wider array of shots than to simply believe that point-to-point aerial golf is THE way to play?

One other thing -- it's no less critical for key club leaders and those in management to educate and back up their superintendent when such actions take place. Let's realize the masses that play golf are no different than the masses who think McDonald's is the all-time best hamburger. Failure to back up your people will only result in a return to the "let's water it all approach." When club leadership works hand-in-hand with superintendents in a continuous education process I can't see why courses will not play to a more optimum balance between air and ground games.

[A_Clay_Man]

Few things I want to clear up before responding to all of the fine responses.

Ken Dye Knew the climate he was designing in, and designed it for the firmer side. Not necessarily, not green, but clearly the knobs (mounding) allow for wonderful creativty and that is being wasted.

During our discussion, that led to the n2n (Which wasn't about PH) I acknowledged the "comfort zone" all supers have to have,. It may have been his obstinateness, to even that small esoteric, that showed me he wasn't interested in open honest discourse. That's when I backed away and then he made the Ran comment, and I went in 4 the n2n.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John S:

Here's what it boils down to -- many superintendents, no less than other folks, are creature of habits -- they also understand that it's best to give the majority of the customers what they want even when it flies in the face of what golf should be. Job security takes precedence over stepping out on a limb.

Too many courses simply overwater because if anything else should occur a good number of superintendents are beaten over the head with the belief that green is good. That no matter what else -- douse the course with water because people who play golf (as opposed to golfers) want to feel that lush turf under their feet.

I certainly concur with the comments made to me by Steve Cadenelli -- former president of the GCSAA when I interviewed him a few years back -- he said, "You only water to keep grass alive" -- nothing more and nothing less.

I visit and play a good number of courses per year and it amazes me how many superintendents will take the "safe" approach and inundate the layout with water. I mean I know of facilities in Northern NJ that will have drives nearly plug in the fairways even after dry conditions have persisted for some time.

The enemy for these folks is the color brown. Instead of spending some valuable time with the key leaders at the club and eventually disseminating information via newsletters / e-mails to the membership the approach is usually the same year after year -- pump more water and rid any element of brown on the playing turf.

John -- let's talk a bit about job specifics. I'm a writer -- I get paid in meeting deadlines and in being precise to the total length and substance of what I produce. I have to follow very strict guidelines in the writing business on what I do and when I submit it. If I don't -- to use your analogy -- then the steak for me will not be on the table period!

Why is the situation with superintendents any different? Why do a number of your folks take the defensive posture and simply shake one's head and proclaim that we as golfers "don't get it" with what you and others are facing. I'm here to play golf -- not to have some nature preserve that's testament to the desire to keep everything verdant green.

Clearly, if superintendents allow themselves to get caught up in a Gallup poll approach and listen to every Tom, Dick and Harry about how the course is prepared then nothing of real substance will take place. The average Joe and Jane really don't know golf any more than I understand how the rockets fly at NASA.

The game of golf is about allowing for some degree for the bounce of the ball. Clearly, the strains of bermuda and zoysia do not allow for much of this during the summer months, but in most other areas of the country I can't see why most of the other courses have to water to the point of absurdity.

John -- you say the issue is more complicated than it appears. For the purposes of discussion let's say I agree with you to a degree -- but how bout a number of folks in the field learn to curtail water usage and allow the courses to play more naturally and for golfers at those facilities to learn how to play a wider array of shots than to simply believe that point-to-point aerial golf is THE way to play?

One other thing -- it's no less critical for key club leaders and those in management to educate and back up their superintendent when such actions take place. Let's realize the masses that play golf are no different than the masses who think McDonald's is the all-time best hamburger. Failure to back up your people will only result in a return to the "let's water it all approach." When club leadership works hand-in-hand with superintendents in a continuous education process I can't see why courses will not play to a more optimum balance between air and ground games.

Matt,

Hard to believe you think you are proving your point to John. I think you made his.

Your first quote that you water only enough for the grass to survive is the way most supers I know water.....for cost, or system limitations - either coverage or a low GPM that only allows 10 minutes a night watering, etc.  Differing soils, water quality, etc. account for most variations.

Your post also reeks of "Don't listen to the heathens, listen to me, cause I know more...."  Who made Golf Club Atlas, or  Matt Ward king?  For better or worse, you are in the minority opinon on brown being better than green.

That said, I wonder if any super listens to the most typical comments or the typically loudest comments from his players?  ie, could a firm and fast greens chairman really hold sway over the rest of the committee and membership?

My understanding is that Philly at least, and I think much of NJ are under government imposed water limitations. In the Philly district, I think it is 17 Million gallons per year.  If you take the annual calculated need, that is not enough to cover a 130 acre golf course in a dry year there.  How could superintendents possibly over water in those restricted conditions?  IF they do, they will eventually get caught and pay the price in fines, etc.

My point is that supers have gradually moved away from excesses in watering, pesticides, and fertilizers without the general public being aware.  Are there laggards? Probably.  But I wonder if all the complaints I here could really be substantiated against supers.

I have guy in my building, who is also a member of my club.  Every time I see him in the hall, he assumes the super knows nothing.  Why is it wet?  I'm sure they REALLY don't need to aerify.....etc.  He is wrong in nearly every case... based on what I know about the super business, which is more than most of you, but less than necessary to know.  It falls in the "know enough to be dangerous" category, I'm sure!

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