Genius at work

[mike_malone]

    I love it when the genius of a guy like Flynn is revealed to me.The seventh hole at Rolling Green is an obssession of mine.The first time i played it i knew something was amiss;i did not know what though.

   The hole is a dropshot short 3 shotter(I refuse to call it a par five,because that mentality is what prompted changes to the hole in the 70's.)There is a creek on the left of the landing area and a group of trees on the right that existed when the course was built in the 20's.The ideal shot is toward the creek.We removed many trees  this winter that had BEEN PLANTED IN THE IDEAL LANDING AREA and covered up the creek's visibility from the tee.

    I am lobbying to remove the 70's plantings within 15 yards of the right side of the fairway (4 evergreens from around 100 to 25 yards from the green).These are the trees i saw the first time and cringed.

    There is a significant slope on the right side of the fairway in this area that goes from right to left.Just before the green the ground slopes down to the green.

     The effect is potentially one of the most fun shots in golf.Where do i carry the ball to run on the green?How close to the green?How far to the right to play the bounce?I have heard that getting the pros to think causes them the most trouble.


  Of course the tree planting has taken away the right side.Those who argue for the trees say--you guessed it---It makes the hole too easy without them.


     We have  been presented an architect's idea to remove the trees and place a bunker 50 yards short of the green on the right and extend the fairway more to the right and also to stretch the left side bunker by the green more toward the tee to catch more left kicking balls.

     
  Now (thanks for your patience)----the genius i uncovered last night..I hit a very nice running 5 wood exactly where i wanted to on the right side of the fairway but just a little too short to run on the green.It came to rest just next to the current left greenside bunker.


   I THEN REALIZED THE GENIUS OF FLYNN.HE DESIGNED THE RIGHT SIDE FAIRWAY WIDTH WIDE SO THAT YOU COULD MISS THE SHOT TO the right as well as the left.He did not put a bunker in the hillside because it would give you a visual clue where to aim.Having fairway ten yards to the left of the best line AND TEN TO TWENTY YARDS TO THE RIGHT OF THE BEST LINE creates confusion.What a great hole he designed.


   Now you can only miss to the left when hitting in the fairway..We significantly changed that hole when we planted those trees.

    I'll keep you posted on what happens..I know Wayne Morrison likes the right bunker idea and i can live with it,but i think i found another reason why the guy who did  it originally got it right and we just need to go back to that--simple.




  Sorry to run on about my course,BUT THE POINT I AM TRYING TO ELUCIDATE is that no matter how many times you see something you need to approach it with an open mind to see what a genius envisioned and implemented.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mayday,
Further proof that the old guys got it and MOST of the new guys don't.

You can put Fazio in this classification and the thing that is just unbelievable is that he's from Philly. One would think a guy like would know respect for the old school much, much more, considering the school of golf he had to learn from.

[Jason Mandel]

Tommy,

Have you ever seen some of George Fazio's stuff.  Tom was basically his uncles right hand man on some of those courses around Philadelphia and its amazing that were talking about guys with the last name of Fazio.

I'm talking about Waynesborough(fantastic green complexes although little Tommy is currently "softening" some of his uncles greens.

George Fazio did some work in the Philadelphia area that gets respect in which Tom was a part of.

Mike Cirba said it best a few months ago when talking about architects progression, or as is the case with Fazio, regression.

Jason

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

I read that very carefully. Forget about creating confusion. A bunker on the right is just screaming to get done on that hole!! 50 yards short of the green is too far out though. To have real meaning in both strategic thought as well as truly effective playability it needs to be only about half that and if you look there's a perfect natural crease just at that point which is a perfect natural crease to tuck that proposed bunker into! The very left side of that right side proposed bunker is critical though. That detail alone will create the perfect optional strategic choice (confusing?) for the long man to take it at that green with something aggressive straight at the center of that green (slightly right of center actually due to the right to left contour) or with something a little less aggressive just over that bunker (if ideally placed distance-wise from the front of the green) to get the kick on. A right to left kick-on play will also take a bit of guts and some local knowledge experience---all good things in strategic choice and thought (what if they hung it a little high on the hill or bank and it stayed there! ) And for the higher handicapper and shorter player that bunker set-up will also work just beautifully on their third shot and options!!

You have a really unique opportunity there! The ground, the multi-options due to it are just talking to you. Having no bunker there isn't confusing (in a good sense at all)---it's only less thought provoking than with a bunker there perfectly placed for direction and distance. I've almost never been so certain of an architectural application in my life!

Don't you blow this Mayday, because I know where you live!!

[mike_malone]

TEPaul
    You are Morrison's puppet

     All seriousness aside,i still think I would love to play this hole the way Flynn envisioned it,designed it,and built it.
   As you know on a small property there is little wiggle room.However,he could have put this green 50-75 yards longer if he chose to---he really loved that slope and then that falloff to the green.
There  were trees planted on the right side of this hole in the 30's----50 yards from the fairway--out of play.


     I hesitate (hesitation over)to disagree with two guys writing a book on Flynn and an architect with a proven Flynn restoration record---but so what.

[TEPaul]

One more thing Mayday. Do I have the perfect idea of what this bunker is going to look like and play like because I know now you're going to see to it that it gets done. In that position it's probably going to receive 10% or more of the total play that goes through that hole--so what're the options going to be of how to get out of it? Check with me Pal---do I have some ideas on the multi-options for players recovering out of that bunker! This will be beautiful! If you'd like we can even christen it the Mayday or M. Malone bunker! Flynn would approve!

[mike_malone]

 Tom


 I agree we need to really think about the distance from the front of the green and the distance from the middle of the fairway as well as the width and depth of that bunker.I feel inadequate to the task.Let's eyeball it sometime.
 I certainly agree that using one  of the existing  creases makes sense,although i wonder if that creates a drainage problem.Mark Fine notes many of these have that purpose for Flynn.

[TEPaul]

" I hesitate (hesitation over) to disagree with two guys writing a book on Flynn and an architect with a proven Flynn restoration record---but so what."

I tell you what Mayday---you're coming out to dinner with all of us next Friday night. Me, Wayne and the architect. Can't even remember now who that is---Ron Forse? It doesn't matter! We're taking you to a nice restaurant with a booth for four and you're taking the inside seat. When dinner is over you either agree with all of us because if you don't we have you in that inside seat and we're all going to beat the shit out of you until you do agree with us!

If you want me to prove to you all the neat options and playabilities with a bunker perfectly designed in that exact position, I'd be glad to do it!

[mike_malone]

 Tom
     The prospect of me at a nice restaurant frightens me into submission.

[mike_malone]

 Some have said"It will be like the 5th at Merion"(I'm talking golf Tom,not whiskey).I say i want the 7th at RG,not the 5th at a course 15 minutes away.
    Flynn used this bunker idea on #7 at HVCC.Why not at RG?

   The basic idea of this thread is not what i want to do to this hole,BUT UNCOVERING WHAT THE ORIGINAL DESIGNER WAS THINKING.

  Sorry Tom but that is more interesting than what you think should be done.

[mike_malone]

 now i need to go to bed so i can play that hole tommorrow and learn more.

[TEPaul]

"Let's eyeball it sometime."

I've aleady done that about six weeks ago!

"I certainly agree that using one of the existing  creases makes sense,although i wonder if that creates a drainage problem."

Just forget about drainage problems! That's what you talk to architects for in the field for ten minutes when you're talking great architectural concept!

This is frankly spooky! I was going to mention how to handle sheet drainage problems with that bunker off that right to left hillside a post or so ago! It's simple as ABC--you just create a low profile contour (convex) on its high or right side that'll take most of the water out along the tee or incoming side and has a shape that'll be effective for that purpose on the outgoing side and also neat for playability too!

Stick with me Pal--this will be really beautiful! So much, in fact, it'll probably inspire the most brain dead tree lover in the club to reconsider the whole idea of trees on a golf course.

Does that get you attention?

[wsmorrison]

Mike,
Take a segative will you.  Isn't that the line from Young Frankenstein?  In any case, stop over analysing things.  You have to remember that those golden age guys didn't get everything exactly right and they knew it better than everybody.  You would be absolutely amazed at great architecture that happened by accident or in retrospect worked out great for different reasons than was intended.  By the way, that bunker idea was my very own.  Tommy, if it is called the Mayday or Malone bunker I will go postal.  I don't have many original ideas so don't take away one of the few I've had.  It is absolutely the right way to go from every level.  One, you have to appease the low handicappers that say taking out the trees will make the hole easy.  A bunker in the right spot 30 yards short of the green removes this obstacle completely.  As Tommy said, there is a perfect wrinkle to fit it into.  Let's put it this way, the bunker short right of the 5th at Merion helps make that one of the great holes in all of golf.  Sorry guys, but it is true.  Merion's 5th is awesome and it has much the same topography as does the green end of the 7th at RGGC.  Secondly, the options and thought processes that are provoked are simply great.  And it would be ashame to go back to the purity of Flynn's design for the sake of purity alone.  Christ, Mike, blow out the candles on your Flynn shrine at home and get with the program.  Temptation and options are the name of the game when it comes to golf architecture.  The Morrison bunker and tree removal introduces the maximum potential on that hole.  Tom, if we have dinner with Mike and he refuses to go along with us...we'll beat him up and make him pay for the dinner.  And we ain't ordering the cheap red wine either.  That'll get to that Quaker Malone more than any mere beating.

[TEPaul]

"Flynn used this bunker idea on #7 at HVCC."

The bunker in that position at HVGC's #7 is not enough like this one, topographically or otherwise! You have to understand the distinctions between those two hole for a variety of reasons!

"The basic idea of this thread is not what i want to do to this hole,BUT UNCOVERING WHAT THE ORIGINAL DESIGNER WAS THINKING."

Sorry, Mayday, we study this fellow all the time and there're some things that just aren't knowable. This is an opportunity that is so obvious strategically and playability-wise it's disgusting but even if we did tell the membership what the strategy is with three bull-horns they still won't understand the concept completely and wouldn't really figure it out day to day and that's the Godamned beauty of great architecture and great architectural concept!!

   

[wsmorrison]

By the way, Mike, you know why Flynn couldn't put the green where you made mention and I think is on the routing map that was in the flooded Flynn room (not by Flynn or his group).  Jim Nagle and Ron Forse clearly indicated why it could not be done and was not done on that site.  You are right though, the topography that is integrated with the existing green site is extraordinary and it does, despite your protestations, scream for a bunker!  Put it in and you may understand, that is after Tom, Ron F, Jim N, Ron P, Ian A, Craig D, Mike C, Kelly B M, and I explain it to you  Do I have to bring Connie Lagerman over to kick some sense into you?  I will you know.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I think you should name the bunker, "Forever," because that's how long its taking you guys to get this Flynn book done!

Get with it, or I'll show-up for dinner Friday night, thus anouncing it here to let Fazio know to have his goons pull a hit on all of us while were dining.

An Old Italian Saying:

"Se non l'amano loro mostra poi un piccolo amore e loro ha chiusi su per sempre"

Which means, "If they don't like you then show them a little love and shut them up forever."

[wsmorrison]

I think you should name the bunker, "Forever," because that's how long its taking you guys to get this Flynn book done!

Tommy N, we are back to writing and I'm predicting that we will be done the Flynn book by the end of this year.  I quit my job to work on the book and some other golf-related projects so it could actually happen.  Nobody would be happier than me to see this work completed, except maybe Tom Paul.  Tom can go back to being a gentleman farmer once we're finished with the book, the book tour and all the golf architecture lady groupies that will be flocking to all of our book signings.

[Jim_Coleman]

    I'm begging you, not only for your own good but for the good of Rolling Green.  Please, please, get some help!!!  It's not too late.

[mike_malone]

 When i played the hole today(with my long suffering partners),i realized a simpler way to say this..The fairway needs to be wide enough so a shot hit in the fairway on the right side can roll up to the right of the green.This is what Flynn intended because he designed  it that way,built it that way,and it was maintained that way for years.
    Wayne
        Are you saying that Flynn made a mistake not puting a bunker on this hole?If so.,i disagree.He had that option available to him and it is sensible and consistent with his work--but he did not do it.

[TEPaul]

No problem, Mike---if it's just a fairway and a hillside you want then that's the way it will be.

[paul cowley]

wayne ....just got an image of you and tom and new toy ,chopper with sidecar, tooling towards book signings...
......but it really wasn't strong enough that i would advise you to do anything different than you have already planned ,and i'll let you know if i feel any changes.
.....so just carry on my friends  

[wsmorrison]

Paul,
I hope we're getting together sometime next month if you're taking a northern swing.  Contact me at home 610.664.9663 or cell 610.613.8073.  Tom and I are looking forward to seeing you sooner or later, my friend.
Best,
Wayne

[wsmorrison]

Mike, Mike, Mike.  So what, Flynn didn't put a bunker in on RGGC's #7.  Why does that automatically signal to you that it wouldn't be better if it were in there?  You ought to shed the purity tag and go with the flow.  Did Flynn constantly tinker and make changes at a number of courses?  Yes, of course. But just because he didn't make that change doesn't mean it is not better.  The fairway should be wider as it used to be.  That will make the bunker perform even better!  I'm not saying Flynn made a mistake, he simply did not have a bunker there.  It is nearly 80 years later and I think we might consider the present and not always look to the past.  I do not hold the past as sacrosanct.  I hold Flynn in as high a regard as anyone having seen 43 Flynn course designs and redesigns and I am constantly amazed by his talents.  But if things can be improved they ought to be and given that it is a concept used elsewhere by Wilson/Flynn it is perfectly reasonable to consider its use at RGGC.  Given that Ron Forse, Jim Nagle, Ron Prichard, Ian Andrew, Kelly Blake Moran, Tom Paul, Mike Cirba, Craig Disher, and others agree that a bunker is an awfully good idea combined with a wider fairway and the egregious tree removal, I wish you would come over from the dark side.  I won't bother to attempt to sway you.  It is a big world and there's room in it for your views and mine.  Feel free to disagree, it pleases me that we don't see everything exactly the same.  But I see things from a broad range of golfer's abilities, not just the way you play the hole and think a bunker would be an appealing addition to players of all skill levels and it will most likely enable the other changes we do agree on come about.  In my opinion and that of many others, it simply works and is ideal for the hole.  

Now, Mike.  Explain to me once again why it was OK to put a chipping area to the right of #1 green when Flynn clearly did not indicate doing so.  In fact, Flynn indicated that he wanted that green to be an island green surrounded by rough.  You clearly like the concept as it is now.  But this makes no sense in light of your thinking on #7.  This needs to be explained as it demonstrates a serious lack of consistancy in your way of thinking.

[mike_malone]

 Wayne
   The simple answer on #1 is i knew less about Flynn then than i do now.I still like it and think the height of the grass around the green is the lowest form of architectural features,not permanent like a bunker.
    You get my contrary nature going the more people you mention that think the bunker on #7 is a good idea.I have said i am okay with it,i just think we should play it without it first and see.I believe we will be much happier than we are now.

[TEPaul]

Ok Wayne, that settles it. We're going to get Mike Malone into the inside seat in that booth at dinner next Friday night and you, me and Ron Forse are all going to beat the shit out of him right after the soup if he doesn't agree to that bunker. If he doesn't agree to put that bunker in at that point we'll let him eat his steak first and beat the shit out of him again. Then WE"LL decide whether that bunker goes in or not and if he's going to get any dessert or just get the shit beat out of him again!

You know what I call a dinner like that? I call it "Three geniuses at work".

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