"The Bay Course at Seaview was originally designed by Hugh Wilson"

[macm75]

Read the story by Ron Whitten in GolfDigest.com:
(sorry if it's old news for you guys)

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/seaview.html

If this is true, what are the known courses that Hugh Wilson Designed?
-Merion East
-Merion West
-Cobb's Creek
-Phoenixville CC
-Bay Course at Seaview?
-?

[wsmorrison]

macm75,

Tom Paul and I discovered that Wilson oversaw the development of the Seaview Bay course about a year ago in letters from Wilson to Oakley and Piper at the Dept of Agriculture.  We thought that Ross came in soon afterwards to make changes...we didn't know that he staked out the bunker positions.  Nice to know, thank you for the notice.  I called Ron Whitten and hope to get a copy of the newspaper article he found that attributes the course to Wilson.

I'm not so sure that Wilson designed Cobbs Creek.  Steve Sayers found a newspaper article saying it was someone else.  I think Tom Paul misplaced the article, so I hope to get a copy from Steve.  I believe the article stated that Wilson oversaw the site selection but someone else (I think with an Italian surname) designed the course.

It is certain that Wilson and Flynn worked together quite a bit, definitely at Merion East and West and possibly at Phoenixville.   Wilson spent 2 days with Flynn at Kittansett, and Wilson's Princeton obituary mentions that he was working with Flynn at Marble Hall (now Green Valley) when he died.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Wayne,

This is a very speculative question. Regardless, would you speculate Flynn and Wilson may have become partners in golf architecture had the latter not passed away so young?

Just curious,

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne Morrison,

I'm not so sure that Wilson designed Cobbs Creek.  Steve Sayers found a newspaper article saying it was someone else. ..I believe the article stated that Wilson oversaw the site selection but someone else (I think with an Italian surname) designed the course.

I believe it was a fellow named Pasquale Mucci

[wsmorrison]

Jeff,

That is an essential question.  At this point, you are correct, all we can do is speculate.  I think it is a certain conclusion that they had a very close relationship--I've seen it referred to in writings as a surrogate father-son relationship.  They were probably going to go into business in some capacity although maybe informally.  Wilson's health was very fragile for many years; he was laid up for weeks at a time a number of times.  But we must remember that Hugh and Alan Wilson were active in their insurance business and Hugh needed to work as he was not independently wealthy.  So my guess is that while they did work together on a number of projects, they would've kept on the collaborative relationship although it may never have gotten to an official corporate entity.  

The working relationship between Wilson and Flynn was born out of their affections for each other and a mutual respect for their talents in golf agronomics and design.  Wilson was very active in agronomics at Merion's 2 courses as well as Pine Valley, Sunnybrook, and Seaview.  The field was still new in America and there was a lot of trial and error efforts being done.  This was a time of a great deal of collaboration between designers and between agronomists.  The efforts of Hugh Wilson, Alan Wilson and Flynn in conjunction with Oakley and Piper got the National Green Section (later the USGA Green Section) going.  Given all these pursuits of Wilson and his fragile health, it wouldn't surprise me if much of the design work on the projects was left to Flynn--I don't know how much time Wilson would've had to spend a lot of time in design.  However, that is speculative and I'm not sure if we'll be able to produce evidence of this.  

What is clear is that they worked together and bounced ideas between them on a number of projects.  I found it interesting to discover their time in Kittansett and Marble Hall.  Flynn's work at Merion is underrated yet it is starting to resonate with the membership.  All architectural drawings that have been found to date for the East and West course are by Flynn starting in 1916 and continuing through 1934.  We know the course changed quite a bit from 1912 to 1924 and while I am sure Wilson was in overall management of the work, he and Flynn probably collaborated on it, and it wouldn't surprise me if Flynn had a central role in the evolution of the course.  After all, Flynn was revising the course for a good 10 or more years after Wilson died.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

If so, that Mucci antecedent sure was a heck of a designer.  Pasquale designed some great holes on that course.  If it weren't for the horrendous conditioning and 6 1/2 hr rounds, I'd love to play the course.  Many of the best golf work crews in and around Philadelphia were Italians during the early days of golf expansion in Philadelphia.  Joe Valentine's ability to speak Italian (and of course English) was a key factor in his getting on the Merion work crew and his talents got him the superintendent's job after Flynn left to devote himself full time to golf design.  BTW, I also heard Pasquale's mother made the best linguini and gravy in South Philly.

[Mike Worth]

A question for the masses, then - how to explain all those Ross blueprints for each of the 18 holes that hang in the Hotel?

Those are certainly Ross' blueprints.  Not Wilson's

[wsmorrison]

SS1
Great question.  Maybe he made changes after the initial layout and bunker design?  Is there a date on the drawings?

[Patrick_Mucci]

SS1,

It is a great question.
What's the date of the blueprint documents ?

Didn't Ron Whitten address that issue in his research ?

Wayne Morrison,

I understood that the greatest hazards at the Bay course were the bugs, and that early spring and fall play were the optimal times to enjoy the golf course.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,
I don't know about north Jersey or Long Island, but down the shore in south Jersey they have these greenhead flies that bite the heck out of you.  Galloway has the same problem.  Marshy areas and the beaches can get so bad that it keeps people away.  Bug spray doesn't help much with these suckers and their bite is painful.  The spring and fall are the best time to play the south Jersey shore courses.

I recall playing at Aronimink last year with an incredible number of gnats around nearly the entire course.  I swear they were driving me mad!  I never put insect repellent on, but I was spraying on borrowed repellent constantly.  After awhile, even when there were no gnats (briefly) I was hallucinating them.  They got in your eyes, nose, ears, mouth...whatever hole they could find.  That was a weird experience.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

Had I stayed on the 17th green at Galloway any longer I figured that I would either be eaten alive or carried off.

It was the quickest two putt of my life.

Strangely, the 18th tee wasn't that bad.

[T_MacWood]

SS1
Are you certain there are plans for the two 18's by Ross? It sounds from the article that the last nine by Gordon wasn't until later. Didn't Wilfred Reid do some work at Seaview too?

Cobb's Creek was the object of criticism when it first opened...I wonder if Wilson wasn't called in at some point to fix it.

Did Hugh Wilson accept a fee at Seaview or at any of the courses he designed?

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

I think SS1 meant that there are Ross drawings for each of the 18 holes at the Bay Course.  The date of the drawings is critical to figuring out the architectural timeline.

John Reid did the initial layout of Atlantic City CC later remodeled by Flynn.  I don't think Wilfred Reid did any work in New Jersey, at least not according to Cornish and Whitten.

Could you please direct me to the information you have on the initial revues of Cobb's Creek?  I sure would like a copy of any papers you have on the subject.

As far as Wilson accepting a fee, I doubt very much that he did although we've never seen any documentation stating that he didn't.  We simply haven't seen any documentation saying that he did.  Considering his attitude towards amateur play and Merion's history of amateur golf (they didn't have a professional event until 1934) and the other amateur architects in Philadelphia (Thomas and Crump) it would seem reasonable that he did not accept pay for his design or agronomic work.

[Mike Worth]

Tom.

I didn't say there were Ross plans for two-18 hole golf courses in the Hotel.  

In the Hotel there is a hole-by-hole blueprint for each hole on the Bay Course.  To address someone else's question, I think the date of these blueprints is consistent with the opening of the course in 1914.  One would certainly not get the impression that the Ross blueprints were done several years after the course opened.  

I think it's fairly common knowledge here that Ross did not design the Pines Course.  It's early in the morning, but I think Flynn did 9-holes of the Pines course and Gordon did another 9 in the 1950s.  Several of the holes on the Pines course were significantly altered when the club went public and the hotel was expanded.  I am told by a former member of that club (when it was private) that 9, 15, 16 and 18 were altered.

Still, for those that have played both courses, the Pines course is far superior to Ross' Bay Course

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
I believe I read the Cobb's Creek criticism in American Golfer...unfortunately I don't have a photocopy.

Ross's bunkering at Seaview was around 1915. If I'm not mistaken Reid was the pro at Seaview at some point.

[Chris_Blakely]

The drawings of each of the 18 holes in the hotel do not have a date on them.

[wsmorrison]

SS1 and Chris,

Do the Ross drawings correspond conceptually with what is on the ground now?  I have some old aerial photographs courtesy of Craig Disher or Dan Wexler and I'll compare these to a recent Terraserver photograph of the course to look for changes.  Maybe I'll drive down to Seaview tomorrow and look at the Ross drawings and see what's what.  Too bad those architects back in the early days did not date their drawings...it would make research a lot easier.

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

I just looked through my Wilson/Piper/Oakley files and there is an article in there by William Evans I think in the Philadelphia Ledger newsapaper around 1918 mentioning Hugh Wilson as the designer of the two Merions and Seaview.

I can't find the specific letter in the files at the moment but remember when we noticed Wilson wrote to Piper or Oakley about what a drunk F. Pickering (foreman on Merion East (1913) and West (1914) and probably Seaview (perhaps 1915 or 1916)) was and that he had to be replaced on the West he got so drunk. It mentioned that Flynn (Pickering's brother in law?) replaced him as the foreman at Merion West. But then we also noticed in one of those agronomy letters that Wilson mentioned he used Pickering AGAIN at Seaview which would've been later of course. Wilson seemed to give drunks plenty of chances

Looking through those agronomy letters just now I do see quite a bit of mention by Wilson discussing getting as much of that Rhode Island bent as he can from Whitney's stash in that "one thousand acre field" of Whitney's on Prudence Island for Merion, Pine Valley and Seaview.

Since all these letters pre-date that Atlantic City article (1918) where Whitten mentions Ross came in for a week to bunker Seaview, I guess one could certainly conclude that Wilson designed and layed out Seaview's Bay course.

It was about 4 years ago I went down to Seaview to interview the pro/general manager to take Seaview into the GAP and he did give me some copies of material about Flynn doing a Pines nine, and I did look at those hole blueprints on the wall of the club by Ross but I didn't look at them that carefully. Those Bay course hole blueprints did look pretty sophisticated though. That might lead me to believe they were done by Walter Irving Johnson but he didn't go to work for Ross until 1920.

[TEPaul]

John Reid was one of the most perapetitic pro/greenkeepers I've ever heard of. Pete Trenham knows a lot about him. He was the pro/greenkeeper at my club, GMGC who got pissed off and quit in 1921 when the Wilsons and Flynn came into our course and redid 17 of our greens which obviously had real agronomic problems.

[Chris_Blakely]

Wayne,

I remember looking at the drawings of the holes before and after my round both times I played the Bay course.  I do not remeber which holes; but, I do remeber the bunkering on the drawings not matching several of the holes on the course and that I was having some trouble figuring out what was done.  C&W I believe lists Tillinghast as doing some renovations.  If this is true, that may explain some of my difficulty.

[TEPaul]

Frankly, a club of that age--Seaview's Bay course--it doesn't surprise me at all that they'd advertize the course as being designed by Ross. A lot of clubs don't really make distinctions of who did exactly what, it seems to me. If they see the name of an architect who's become very famous, like Ross, mentioned at all in connection to their club the rumor generally starts that he designed the course. This is probably a little like what happened at Kittanset and why they claimed that Hood was the designer of the course.

I spent most of an afternoon looking at Seaview's Bay course and Ron Whitten is sure correct when he called it's quaint (or something like that). First of all you definitely get the feeling the water table is probably six inches below your feet and consequently the architecture (the minimal amount they did) is all basically built UP! Those teeny little greens are mostly all pushed right up with no tie out to grade at all. One of those greens was noticeable to me as it just might be the smallest green I've ever seen in my life!

That kind of really old architecture is very interesting to me. It's very rudimentary and basic and so it shows well an interesting stage or era in the entire evolution of golf architecture. The bunkering, as Ron Whitten said is very interesting and if I'm not mistaken I thought the pro/general manager told me that Tillinghast did some of that bunkering on the Seaview Bay course and that would square with his listing of (R) in Cornish & Whitten.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Here is what was written by Fred Kortebein, Wilson's associate who corresponded for Wilson when he was laid up, on Feb 8, 1924 to CV Piper:

Dear Sir:

Your letter of the seventh instant to Mr. Wilson enclosing a copy of letter from Assistant Collector of Customs Perry at Boston with respect to one F.G. Pickering, has likewise been opened by me, and in reply beg to advise as follows.

Mr. Pickering was employed to look after the practical work in the actual construction of the East Course at Merion, and it is Mr. Wilson's feeling that in this particular class of work he is a very practical man.  He, however, had one fault at that time, which was the excessive use of liquor, and he was likewise employed in the actual construction of the West course, when conditions became more acute with him, and he practically "blew up".  Flynn worked under him and, when he was let go from Merion, Flynn succeeded him.  Mr. Wilson subsequently tried him out in the actual construction work at Seaview, and his characteristics during his employment there were even more pronounced than at Merion.

Yours very truly,
Fred Kortebein

As you stated, there were many letters in the Wilson-Piper/Oakley collection that refer to Wilson's work at Seaview the first that I've seen is dated November 21, 1913.  No doubt Wilson was familiar with Clarence Geist as he was a member of Merion Cricket Club so it would be natural to assume that Wilson would help Geist's development outside Atlantic City.  For many years following the opening of the course ((Jan 9, 1915) we see that Wilson was intimately involved in agronomic issues including how to deal with salt marshes and the types of seeding to use--which he procured.
A NY Times article dated Feb 27, 1915 states that Wilfred Reid, former professional at Banstead Downs GC, England took over the position as head professional of Seaview GC.  the article clearly demonstrates that with the war going on, golf was at a standstill in Britain and many left for America to find work.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW;

As Wayne said, we've never seen anything to indicate Hugh (or Alan) Wilson ever took a fee for anything they did related to golf architecture, agronomy etc. These guys, like the rest of their contemporary friends around here---Crump, Thomas, Fownes etc were basically amateur architects doing things for themselves and for their friends and acquaintences of which Clarence Geist was certainly one. The only ones of that Philadelphia group who appear to have ever been paid for architecture were Flynn and Tillinghast. Most all of what both Hugh and Alan WIlson did seemed to revolve around Merion and PV and a few other projects probably connected by friends and most of what they were involved in was in the context of the USGA with a number of others for which we all know no one gets paid. But certainly later Piper and Oakley did get paid by the USGA as they were the ones who actually ran the Green Section day to day.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SS1,

The hotel didn't alter the holes at the Pines Course, they disfigured and ruined that section of the golf course, which was a terrific, underrated and overlooked  golf course.

[John Sabino]

In an article published in the February 1915 edition of Golf Illustrated, written by A.W. Tillinghast he mentions "that the course was much too young to analyze too closely, for it is not bunkered as yet" supporting the notion that the course was built by someone other than Ross and he was brought in later to do the bunkering.

Interestingly, the opening match on the course was played on January 11, 1915 and was played by leading amateurs of the day: Chick Evans, Jr. J. D. Travers, C.B. Buxton and Oswald Kirkby.

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