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T_MacWood

Who was the most influential in Scotland?
« on: April 25, 2004, 10:25:47 AM »
Who produced the best work in Scotland...and whose influence was the greatest.

a. T.Morris
b. W.Park II
c. J. Braid
d. H. Colt
e. someone else

ForkaB

Re:Who was the most influential in Scotland?
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2004, 07:02:05 AM »
Tom

I think you have two basic eras, here:

--The early age (1880-1900), when Morris and Park monopolised the laying out of new courses/altering of very old ones.
--the later age (1900-1930), when Braid (and to a lesser degree, Colt) built other new ones on lesser ground and modernised many of the courses that Morris and Park laid out.

I don't think that Colt is in the running for either question, in that while his work was exemplary (particularly Eden and Muirfield), it was limited.

I think that Morris' work had the most influence because it was the most extensive, and at the better venues.  Regardless of whether or not one thinks that much of this work is NLE (or at least hidden to the undiscriminating or 2nd-hand eye), you can't argue with the pedigree of the tracks that even today are proud to credit him with their design.

As for the best work, Colt might win if he had more chances to show what he could do at situations which weren't the slam-dunks that Muirfield and St. Andrews were.  So, I'll vote for Braid, whose stuff is consistently good and occasionally brilliant.  Very much the Donald Ross of Scotland. ;)

Paul_Turner

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Re:Who was the most influential in Scotland?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2004, 05:58:30 PM »
I agree that Harry Colt didn't do enough courses in Scotland to win this one.  Although nearly all he did there was quality work:  Longniddry being another one-still apparently very good (I don't know it) even after 3-4 Colt links holes, hard by the shore, were lost.  He did a lot on The New course too (6 new greens and bunker work).

He did some redesign work at Gullane...but I don't know what.  Also, he designed a course called "Dundee" which I'm not sure even exists anymore?  

I believe he proposed some majot alterations to Montrose, but these were never implemented because of WW1.

Newbattle near Edinburgh is a very late Colt and Co course.  Which doesn't look to be of the same quality-particularly now.

No obvious answer to this one.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2004, 05:59:26 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Paul_Turner

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Re:Who was the most influential in Scotland?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2004, 06:20:09 PM »
PS  HC did some redesign work on Ranfurly Castle, anyone know it?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Niall C

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Re:Who was the most influential in Scotland?
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2013, 10:11:32 AM »
PS  HC did some redesign work on Ranfurly Castle, anyone know it?

Paul

I'm very interested to hear more about Colt at Ranfurly Castle. Haven't played it for a few years but I've played it a number of times and it really is one of the best in the Glasgow area. I wasn't aware Colt was ever involved and don't think I've read about it anywhere either. Do you know what he did ?

Niall

Frank Pont

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Re: Who was the most influential in Scotland?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2013, 04:55:42 PM »
Played Ranfurly Castle a few years back on the way back from a Machrihanish trip. Really liked the course, would strongly recommend it to anyone arriving/leaving from Glasgow Airport, its only a 5 minute ride from the airport. Only later found out that Colt did major renovation work there, the club bills it as a Braid course as far as I know.

For pics of the course:

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/Scotland/Ranfurly-Castle/index.html

Jim McCann

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Re: Who was the most influential in Scotland?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2013, 06:17:45 PM »
Ranfurly Castle's a cracking track.

The opening few holes are a bit of a slog uphill but then the course levels out across some lovely moorland terrain.

Of course, what goes up must come down and the 18th allows you to freewheel all the way back down to the very impressive old clubhouse.

I'm really surprised that Colt is associated with any remodelling work undertaken here.

The club credits Andrew Kirkaldy and Willie Auchterlonie with the original design then, according to its website, "with a reconstruction in 1930 with some influence from the legendary James Braid," which seems a bit of a wooly statement to me!

PS Bridge of Weir is 7 miles and 15 minutes from Glasgow airport so don't think it's only 5 minutes away if you're tight for time, Frank.  ;)

David_Tepper

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Niall C

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Re: Who was the most influential in Scotland?
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2013, 08:46:09 AM »
Jim

I had it in the back of my mind that Willie Campbell might have done an original routing, as I know he was out this way before he went to the US. Not surprised about Braid. More recently Ronnie Lumsden gave them some advice.

Niall

Paul Jones

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Re: Who was the most influential in Scotland?
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2013, 08:48:36 AM »
Who produced the best work in Scotland...and whose influence was the greatest.

a. T.Morris
b. W.Park II
c. J. Braid
d. H. Colt
e. someone else


f. D. Trump
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Niall C

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Re:Who was the most influential in Scotland?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2024, 08:32:53 AM »
I agree that Harry Colt didn't do enough courses in Scotland to win this one.  Although nearly all he did there was quality work:  Longniddry being another one-still apparently very good (I don't know it) even after 3-4 Colt links holes, hard by the shore, were lost.  He did a lot on The New course too (6 new greens and bunker work).

He did some redesign work at Gullane...but I don't know what.  Also, he designed a course called "Dundee" which I'm not sure even exists anymore? 




I don't know if Paul comes on here much these days but if he reads this I'd be interested to know if he ever found out what Colt did at Gullane.


Niall

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Who was the most influential in Scotland?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2024, 09:08:54 AM »
Gullane was listed in the 1930 marketing flyer that Colt & Co issued as a 'B' course, which meant somewhere the firm had redesigned, but I have never found any corroboration. Archie Baird believed that Colt might have been involved with course no. 3, but again, no corroboration has ever surfaced of which I am aware.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Simon Barrington

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Re: Who was the most influential in Scotland?
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2024, 07:20:11 PM »
This question set by a legend on this site isn't even a close race...

James Braid worked on at least 50 of the Top 100 Scottish Courses (recent ranking) and his work was seen on all levels from rudimentary 9-holers right up to the heights of Gleneagles, Troon, Carnoustie and so many more.

From original designs, through upgrading and re-bunkering Open courses, to sensitive remodelling of many OTM layouts post the Haskell, he is the under-appreciated genius of the early "Golden Age", his contribution was huge in growing the game across Scotland, more than any other on c.150 courses
« Last Edit: May 04, 2024, 01:51:45 PM by Simon Barrington »

Niall C

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Re: Who was the most influential in Scotland?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2024, 07:20:43 PM »
If the question was "who was the most prolific architect in Scotland ?" then the answer would possibly/probably be Braid, and if the question was "who gets the most credit for gca in Scotland ?" the answer would almost certainly be Braid.


However if you're looking for the most influential I'd suggest Old Tom. As Peter Lewis put it in his book "Why are there Eighteen Holes ?" , "There can be little doubt that Tom Morris played an important part in the move towards an eighteen-hole game. He was responsible for the initial layout at Westward Ho! in 1864. He then oversaw the increase of Leven from nine holes to eighteen in 1868; he laid out the new eighteen hole course at Forfar in 1871; added an additional hole to the seventeen-hole course at Aberlady in 1872 and reconfigured the course at Carnoustie from ten to eighteen holes in 1873."


Before Old Tom started designing to a standard of 18 holes, or fraction thereof, TOC was very much an outlier in terms of the number of holes. Helping establish 18 holes as the norm must take some beating.


Niall