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Dan Grossman

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Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« on: April 13, 2004, 11:38:22 AM »
There are only two rankings (in my opinion) that I follow and really seem to change on a bi-annual basis - college rankings and golf course rankings.  However, the "rankees" are fighting back in the college ranking process.  As you can read in the article below, Wharton and Harvard are withdrawing their MBA programs from the ranking process.

There are some very interesting quotes from the dean of the Wharton school.  I think this one is most interesting:
Quote
"There are multiple rankings by multiple organizations, all with different methodologies," Baltes said. "Given these factors, each ranking needs to continually differentiate itself with the ultimate purpose of selling magazines, Web sites, guidebooks, etc., as they are commercial enterprises."

Hmmm...that sounds a lot like the issues that people brought up on the epic raters thread last month.  


Wharton cites flux in ranking system for withdrawal

By Sameer Khetan
April 13, 2004

As Wharton Dean Patrick Harker announced last week, the business school's graduate division will not be included in the rankings conducted by periodicals such as U.S. News and World Report and BusinessWeek.
Harker said last Tuesday that the Wharton School will no longer distribute lists of the e-mail addresses of alumni and students to commercial organizations, which use the information to conduct surveys for the rankings.

The same day, Harvard Business School announced that it had made the same decision.

Harker cited several reasons to support the move, including the protection of alumni and student privacy, methodology differences among surveyors and the alleged ineffectiveness of current rankings.

"This is about not providing e-mail lists for current students and alumni, and not about general data about the school," Wharton Communications Director Michael Baltes said. "We felt it was an appropriate time to formalize our policy with regard to providing e-mail lists."

Baltes also noted the varying methodologies of different ranking publications, which Harker believes can be misleading to readers.

"There are multiple rankings by multiple organizations, all with different methodologies," Baltes said. "Given these factors, each ranking needs to continually differentiate itself with the ultimate purpose of selling magazines, Web sites, guidebooks, etc., as they are commercial enterprises."

Wharton professor and Marketing Department Chairman Stephen Hoch questioned the effectiveness of current rankings.

The rankings "can't do much to distinguish [between] these schools," Hoch said. "People look at the difference between one and two, between three and four," when "there are no differences there."

Despite the controversy surrounding the move, Hoch was confident in Wharton's decision.

"The fact that [Wharton and HBS] both benefited from the rankings puts us in a more credible position," Hoch said. The decision "is a signal that [Wharton is] not going to be held hostage by a particular methodology."

To provide students with alternate sources of comparative data, Harker announced Wharton's support of the Graduate Management Admission Council, which is currently working to develop an objective informational database.

According to Baltes, GMAC "already has an operational database that includes data from numerous schools from around the world," with Wharton and Harvard as "simply two schools that are interested in [this] modified system."

While it is unclear how other business schools nationwide will react to Wharton's announcement, Hoch said that he does not anticipate a stir in the academic community.

"I don't think there's going to be a big backlash one way or another," Hoch said. "And I doubt if everybody is just going to jump on the bandwagon, because the other schools may have a potential to benefit" from Wharton's and Harvard's exit from the rankings.  
« Last Edit: April 13, 2004, 01:02:00 PM by Dan Grossman »

John_Conley

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Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2004, 11:44:43 AM »
Since Pine Valley is unusually #1, they don't seem like the course to opt out.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2004, 11:57:38 AM »
Looks like Wharton didn't like the 2002 results and are taking their ball and going home crying.

Mike Hendren

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Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2004, 12:00:16 PM »
Just in from flyover country:   YAWWWWWWWWWN!  Let the uppities take their ball and go home.  

A more important question:  "As a boy, did Jesus ever say 'my dad can beat up your dad'?"

Mike

Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike_Cirba

Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2004, 12:07:23 PM »
Yes, Mike..

Their learned, critical, wholly-objective insights into the failings of the ranking system would have had a bit more validity had they felt that way in the year 2000, wouldn't you say?   ;)

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2004, 12:08:24 PM »
Pine Valley may benefit greatly fromthe rankings.  Just imagine, if you will, how many of those hats, shirts, ball markers and logoed gizmos P.V. sells out of that tiny little shop.  Now imagine how many guest fees that club hauls in over the course of a year.  Pine Valley may be exclusive but they are not beyond some capitalism to benefit their club, pro and trade mark.

Rankings are important to publishers, travel companies, courses and clubs.  
« Last Edit: April 13, 2004, 12:08:51 PM by W.H. Cosgrove »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2004, 12:19:54 PM »
If the top courses pulled out of the rankings game, wouldn't that accomplish a lot of the things that people on this site are worried about?  Classic golf courses would not need to lengthen or toughen their course because they keep moving down in the rankings.  Wouldn't the destruction of the rankings serve to preserve golf course architecture?  I would think that the only classic courses that would need to submit to the technology arms race are the ones that host a PGA tournament or major championships.

Dan;

What happens when the club hosts the local member guest in 25 years and all the par fives are reachable in two and every par four is driver-wedge?  

What happens when the course down the street is now a "regulation" 7,800 yards like everyone else, while the isolationalist folks at your club insist that 6,200 is quite enough, thank you?

The rankings are not the problem.  

The inability of the ruling bodies to control technology is.

Bob_Huntley

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Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2004, 12:36:21 PM »
Didn't Gary Van Gerbig, (or was it Mickey), that pulled Seminole out of the ratings game?

He thought the whole process was flawed and a bit of a joke.

Jim Franklin

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Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2004, 12:48:09 PM »
As a GD rater, I was told the only course I could not call to ask to rate was Pine Valley because they have so many members. Most likely, a rater would know a member so the course would get plenty of evaluations anyway. Just because I can call a course to ask to rate it does not mean they have to let me on. Most places still require you to play with a member. Friar's Head would be a good example of this. They will not host panelists unless they are with a member and will not help in setting this up either. Since I am new to this I am sure there are plenty of other examples. Just my .02.
Mr Hurricane

Jonathan Cummings

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Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2004, 12:53:32 PM »
Believe me, there are enough ratings for the CPCs, PVGCs, etc to last years, even if another rater never steps foot on these places again.

JC

ForkaB

Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2004, 01:05:51 PM »
So, Jonathan

Do you mean to say that if either place happens to get desecrated (say by a member whose father was once the pro there, or even an electrician turned golf course archaeologist....) it would retain it's ranking if no rater ever went there again?  Talk about a (pine) tree falling in an empty forest.........

As for the Wharton/Harvard thang, Donald Trump and Michael Millken must have been raters to have those sort of results...... :'(

TEPaul

Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2004, 01:06:26 PM »
"Didn't Gary Van Gerbig, (or was it Mickey), that pulled Seminole out of the ratings game?
He thought the whole process was flawed and a bit of a joke."

BobH;

It's Barry Van Gerbig, but he'd prefer people like us call him Barend Van Gerbig (his formal name!) these days---you know about that old respect thing these club dictators, even if they are semi-deposed club dictators, like to maintain with the hoi polloi!  

Barry didn't exactly think the rating game was flawed going in. What happened was after he took over Seminole and did some positive things to it architecturally and maintenance-wise he thought that should take Seminole up in the rankings to some number he would have been satisfied with, I guess. That didn't happen so he got upset at the rating and ranking people and told them he wasn't interested in having them rate or rank Seminole at all.

That's the real version. The second and less true version is he got pissed at the ranking people because one of them actually called him Gary Van Gerbig by mistake!

Joel_Stewart

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Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2004, 01:18:30 PM »
There are many courses that do not allow panelists on because they are panelists but they are still rated.  Being a panelist and playing PV a number of times it is my belief they don't care about the rankings, same with ANGC and Cypress Point.  I'm not even sure a club could take its name off such as what Wharton and Harvard have done.  You can't stop a member from having a guest who is a panelist and sending in a review.

A few years ago Bears Club did not allow panelists on for "best new category" and GD did not rate it.  Last year Friars Head did not want to participate but still finished 3rd with 13 panelists having played it.  

The ratings game has become to political and flawed in many fields other than golf.

Rick Shefchik

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Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2004, 01:46:40 PM »
Just because Wharton and Harvard have decided not to participate in the process does not mean they won't be ranked. What's the point of ranking business schools if you're not going to include Wharton and Harvard?
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

JakaB

Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2004, 01:53:38 PM »
A couple of weeks ago my son and I toured UK and then Auburn...at Kentucky the guide said.."Our library has the second largest book endowment next to Harvard."...Then at Auburn the guide said.."Our library is ranked as the second friendliest library in the country behind Harvard."  My son then turned to the beautiful Georgia peach of a girl and said..."That Harvard must have one damn good library."...She was speechless.

johnk

Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2004, 02:37:43 PM »
re: beautiful georgia peaches

Harvard can't touch any of the SEC schools in those rankings.




Mike_Trenham

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Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2004, 10:41:28 PM »
The Businessweek rankings tend to be highly volitile. This is because they get recent grads to rate the program with the most recent classes grades of the program providing 50% of the student satisfaction rating and the prior two classes surveyed providing the other 50%.  So this years survey would include 2004 (50%) 2003 (25%) 2000 (25%), like Golf Digest this is a bi-annual event.

When I enrolled at UVA it was ranked #5, our student satisfaction ranking was #1.  Two years later the faculty and alumni had chased the students beloved Dean and one of the most well liked profs away and it took 15 months to hire a new dean so the graduates were very annoyed to say the least.  They expressed this in their satisfaction surveys and student satisfaction fell from 1 to 15, and UVA fell from #5 to #9, when the schools perfomance improved on the other factors.  The faculty at these schools really do not like the way the students have been empowered by Businessweek.

Imagine if 30% of the GD or GW rankings were based on the members satisfaction.  Take down a few trees, don't admit someone goods friend, have an accessment.  

When it comes down to it rankings are about selling magazines, how would you like it if your business was dependent on a marketing ploy to sell magazines.  This is not to say the publishers don't take this seriously they do.  These rankings are critical to getting the students and future alumni the schools need to grow their endowments.  I was only going to go back full time if I got in a top 10 program.

If you think this web site went crazy upon the publishing of the GW rankings this winter.  Stop by a top B-school the day the businessweek rankings are published!

The other way to look at this is that Wharton and Harvard have the power to change the system.  This is not far from what some on the board (myself included) want ANGC to do with insisting on a competition ball.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2004, 09:40:16 AM »
Pine Valley may benefit greatly fromthe rankings.  Just imagine, if you will, how many of those hats, shirts, ball markers and logoed gizmos P.V. sells out of that tiny little shop.  Now imagine how many guest fees that club hauls in over the course of a year.  Pine Valley may be exclusive but they are not beyond some capitalism to benefit their club, pro and trade mark.

 

W.H. Cosgrove - I really doubt that PV sells much stuff out of their shop.  It's not like you can just drive in and buy a hat or shirt like you can at most other clubs.

Jim Franklin

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Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2004, 10:52:25 AM »
Dan -

Have you been to or played Pine Valley? Pine Valley does a tremendous amount of business out of their shop. Since they have in excess of 700 members, they get a lot of guest play. Since I don't receive frequent invitations to play there, I make sure I load up on a few shirts, ball markers, vests, etc... when I am there as do most people. I would bet it is one of the highest grossing shops per square foot in the country.
Mr Hurricane

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2004, 03:51:19 PM »
Jim,
I've been to PV to watch the Philadelphia Open a couple of years ago.

The shop was closed during that event, and I've been back to look over the course (you can see #2 from the road), but the cops wouldn't allow pro-shop visits.  I have no problem with that - If I were a member at PV, I'd like my privacy too  :)

Steve_Roths

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Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2004, 04:15:29 PM »
Jim,

I think you are exactly right about product sold per square inch.  That place is tiny. It has to be the 2nd smallest pro shop I have seen short of Keiser's Dunes Club.  That has to be the smallest ever.  

I don't see PV losing their spot as far as ranking goes.  I would prefer if Doak and Coore put out there own list and let that be that.  I would rather follow the lead of those two gentleman than some of random raters.

There was an article a few years back in Esquire that Tom listed the courses whorthwile to see.  I will have to dig that up tonight.  

I would rather

Bill Gayne

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Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2004, 04:37:29 PM »
Steve,

Hasn't Doak already done that with the Confidential Guide?

As Wharton correctly points out the rankings are done to sell magazines. I don't think any name architect has an economic incentive to rank. Their business is designing golf courses. The exception being the Confidential Guide which is what makes it unique.

Jimmy Muratt

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Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2004, 04:40:05 PM »
Steve,

I believe this is the list from Esquire that you are talking about the Tom Doak put together.


The Essential Eighteen: The Most Important Golf Courses in America
The game begins with the land on which it is played. Play these courses and you will understand where the game comes from, where it has been, and where it is going. And, oh, yeah: One of them is not in the United States.

by Tom Doak | Apr 01 '00


1. THE OLD COURSE, St. Andrews, Scotland. Three hundred years older than Old Tom Morris, the Old Course is the fountainhead of the game. The seminal American designers began there: Donald Ross was an apprentice in William Forgan's club-making shop. Charles Blair Macdonald and A. W. Tillinghast learned the game while attending St. Andrews University. Alister MacKenzie mapped the Old Course, and a copy of his map hung prominently in Bob Jones's office. And Jack Nicklaus won two of his greatest victories here, in the British Opens of 1970 and 1978. Every great golf course's design goes back to the timeless strategies of St. Andrews.

2. GARDEN CITY GOLF CLUB, Garden City, New York. Devereux Emmet and Walter Travis, 1899. A flattish landscape punctuated by deep pot bunkers in the best Scottish tradition. Its uniquely tilted greens are simply an extension of the fairways, but their challenge remains daunting through a hundred years of technology, and the reason is simple: It's hard to get the ball close to the hole when you have to allow for a bounce--and that's true whether you're hitting a fairway wood or a wedge.

3. OAKMONT COUNTRY CLUB, Oakmont, Pennsylvania. William and Henry Fownes, 1903. A club that has relished its role as America's toughest championship test of golf, most forcefully demonstrated in the U. S. Open of 1935, when only Sam Parks broke 300 over four rounds. Its huge, fast greens are full of undulations the likes of which were not found in Scotland, and they created a new standard for America's elite courses.

4. NATIONAL GOLF LINKS OF AMERICA, Southampton, New York. Charles Blair Macdonald, 1909. Conceived by the first U. S. Amateur champion as an ideal course to further the art of golf architecture in America--and it did just that, gaining worldwide acclaim as the first course outside Britain to rival the best links courses. Several holes are modeled after Macdonald's favorite holes overseas. There are some unusual blind shots, but it's a course loaded with imagination, strategy, and fun.

5. MERION GOLF CLUB (EAST COURSE), Ardmore, Pennsylvania. Hugh Wilson, 1911. A brilliant design crammed into just 126 acres on Philadelphia's Main Line. It was the scene not only of Ben Hogan's stirring 1950 comeback U. S. Open victory but also of Bobby Jones's clinching of the Grand Slam in 1930. The quarry that dominates the finishing holes is justly famous, but it was Wilson's "white faced" bunkers, rising out of the fairway to be visible from the tee, that were adopted by his pupil William Flynn and by other Philadelphia architects such as Tillinghast, George Thomas, and George and Tom Fazio, and that became America's standard.

6. PEBBLE BEACH GOLF LINKS, Pebble Beach, California. Jack Neville and Douglas Grant, 1919, with revisions by Herbert Fowler, H. Chandler Egan, and Jack Nicklaus. The famed California-coast resort is an American icon, and it invented the luxury golf destination resort. The nine holes along the Pacific make it famous, thanks to developer Samuel Morse's foresight in reserving the coastal property for open space and setting the homes back across a fairway. But for the pros and the amateurs in AT&T's annual clambake, it was (and still is) the small, tilted greens that make the course an enduring challenge.

7. PINE VALLEY GOLF CLUB, Clementon, New Jersey. George Crump, 1912-22. Half an hour outside Philadelphia, this epic course is laid out with island fairways surrounded by the sandy wastes of the Pine Barrens. Architects of the day recognized that its bold and difficult design could not be the norm, but modern designers have envied its grand scale, the isolation of each hole--and its reputation as America's best course.

8. WINGED FOOT GOLF CLUB, Mamaroneck, New York. East and West courses by A. W. Tillinghast, 1923. The epitome of the northeastern parkland course, with thirty-six holes of small, well-guarded, undulating greens, which the architect compared to human faces: "Of course, there are many greens [on other courses] which are no more impresssive than the vacant, cow-like expression of some people," Tillinghast wrote, "but then again there are some with rugged profiles which loom head and shoulders above the common herd." The woods from which the course was cut made such a dramatic impression that other famous courses routed across farm fields were planted with hundreds of trees to resemble it.

9. CYPRESS POINT CLUB, Pebble Beach, California. Alister MacKenzie, 1928. The most dramatic meeting of land and sea in golf. MacKenzie was the first to insist that a great golf course should be a beautiful one, and there is no more forceful example of his theory. There are fewer holes along the cliffs than at neighbor Pebble Beach, but the inland holes among the Monterey cypress trees provide a beautiful contrast of scenery, and then the course works its way across the dunes, building toward a climax at the rocky sixteenth and seventeenth holes on the point itself.


Jimmy Muratt

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Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2004, 04:40:39 PM »
continued.....


10. AUGUSTA NATIONAL GOLF CLUB, Augusta, Georgia. Alister MacKenzie and Bobby Jones, 1933. As host to the annual Masters Tournament, Jones's monument to golf has been the scene of more dramatic moments than any other championship course, yet the club is constantly tweaking the design to ensure that it continues to challenge the world's best players. One thing it hasn't changed is the severely undulating greens, which are so hard to approach that Jones and MacKenzie decided that no rough was necessary. If you're out of position on the fairway, it takes a miraculous shot to get close to the hole. In recent years, the beautiful green fairways that television beams us from Augusta the first week of April have set an impossible standard for golf-course superintendents across the country.

11. PINEHURST COUNTRY CLUB (NO. 2 COURSE), Pinehurst, North Carolina. Donald Ross, 1903-35. Pinehurst was America's first multicourse golf resort, but No. 2 was not designed as an ego booster. Its convex greens and tightly mowed chipping areas require more imaginative short-game play than any course before or since. Not even Ross built similar chipping areas on other courses in his day, but many modern architects have imitated them on the basis of Pinehurst's success.

12. THE DUNES GOLF & BEACH CLUB, Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Robert Trent Jones, 1948. The Dunes was only the third golf course on the Grand Strand, and today there are more than a hundred, thanks largely to its success. The Cornell-educated Jones was the first architect to be schooled for the profession rather than jumping into it from another part of the golf business, and he drove the industry to new heights in the development-rich years after the Second World War. Robert Trent Jones became a household name--"Give your course a signature," he advertised, and soon no course could afford to be without one in the marketing-driven new world. The Dunes' long par-5 thirteenth hole, a boomerang around the shores of Lake Singleton, ushered in water hazards as a major component of golf design and, indeed, the "signature hole" as a marketing concept.

13. OAKLAND HILLS COUNTRY CLUB (SOUTH COURSE), Birmingham, Michigan. Donald Ross, 1915, with modifications by Robert Trent Jones, 1950. Jones s redesign of this Detroit classic was one of the most controversial moments in golf, making headlines when none of the professionals could break par--until Ben Hogan's final-round 67 made both men heroes. Jones's new concept included tight fairway bunkering that pinched the fairway 250 to 270 yards from the tee (instead of the "carry bunkers" that had been the standard and were easily carried by the best players) and greens that were designed with several distinct "pin placements" at the back and sides of each green.

14. HARBOUR TOWN GOLF LINKS, Hilton Head, South Carolina. Pete Dye and Jack Nicklaus, 1969. Dye's short, tight, thoughtful design was a radical shift-from the seventy-two-hundred-yard championship courses then in vogue, but the annual Heritage Tournament validated the design with a who's who of winners and put Dye at the forefront of the business. Golfers would never look at railroad ties the same way again.

15. MUIRFIELD VILLAGE GOLF CLUB, Dublin, Ohio. Jack Nicklaus and Desmond Muirhead, 1974. The Golden Bear's answer to Bob Jones's Augusta National became a springboard into the world of golf-course design for every Tour player to follow. But the perfect sight lines and immaculate conditioning of the course that Jack built became the standard for the industry.

16. TPC AT SAW GRASS, Ponte Vedra, Florida. Pete Dye, 1980. Built as the home course for the PGA Tour and the annual Tournament Players Championship, this controversial Dye design was immediately criticized for its difficulty, but it reinvented the golf course as theater. As a stage to test the skills and inner fortitude of the world's best players in front of huge galleries, the course has been a smashing success, and its instant success from the marketing side led many architects and developers to imitate the island-green seventeenth and the difficulty level that had made it newsworthy.

17. SHADOW CREEK, Las Vegas. Tom Fazio and Steve Wynn, 1989. The absence of great land for golf in the barren Nevada desert was no deterrent to Wynn, who had already created a volcano and a tropical forest for his hotels there. He chose Fazio to prove that the hand of man could indeed produce a course to rival the world's best--as long as there was enough money to spend on landscaping it convincingly. Thirty-seven million dollars later, so they say, Shadow Creek was indeed a North Carolina mountain oasis rising out of the desert and, like Pine Valley and Augusta, set a standard that everyone wanted to emulate but no one could afford to. The course ushered in the age of multimillion-dollar private playgrounds (see Man at His Best, page 36) that flaunted the wealth of the end of the century and cemented Fazio's reputation as the designer of the "me" decade.

18. SAND HILLS GOLF CLUB, Mullen, Nebraska. Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw, 1995. The dead opposite of Shadow Creek, Sand Hills is laid into the most perfect dunescape in America, with wind-eroded bunkers begun by nature and even natural green contours on several of the holes. In an age of lavish creations, its smashing success has been a timely reminder that great golf holes derive from interesting terrain, encouraging several young architects to form an alternative "minimalist" school of design. Perhaps more important, its low cost of construction allowed it to be a success despite its remote location, and it encouraged other developments in far-flung places, fields of dreams for golfers of the new century to seek out and enjoy.


Jfaspen

Re:Rankings: What happens if Pine Valley follows Wharton?
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2004, 06:16:49 PM »
I am surprised that Shinnocock is not early on that list.

Jeff