The Links of North Dakota and Hawktree

[Cory]

Has anyone played The Links of North Dakota and/or Hawktree, also in North Dakota?  Can anyone tell me if it is worth the trip up to North Dakota to play these courses.   Thanks.

[Tony_Chapman]

Cory - You may try the search, I think this has come up before.

I have played Hawktree in Bismarck. A very nice Jim Engh design, though I am not sure I would drive 500 miles to play it. My wife was working in Jamestown, ND for a summer, so I zipped over and played it. Have not played the other course.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Maybe someone who is sharper than I with the search feature can find and link to the previous thread. I can never make that thing work right for me.

I also have played Hawktree and think it is a wonderful, fun layout.  If you are up that way it is not to be missed.  Dont know as much about The Links other than I know it was recently for sale, and I think there is a thread about that as well from many months back.

[Tyler Kearns]

Cory,

I played Hawktree by default, after showing up at the Links of North Dakota during aeration (and I had called in advance   . I took a quick look around, and am very anxious to get back and play there. Very peaceful and secluded, not to mention a fine looking golf course. The drive itself to the Links at ND is exceptional, talk about the middle of nowhere (Sutton Bay rivals it for such an experience).

Hawktree is a good course, which I will play again when passing through the area, especially considering its great value ($45). The major criticism was that the course was a little too clean, taking on a fairly manufactured aesthetic. Jim Engh's bunkering here looks nearly identical to that on his other courses, except for the notable black slag which replaced sand in the hazards. Further, I was a little dissapointed by the overuse of the elevated tee boxes which dotted the hilly terrain and lost their exhilarating appeal. Overall, the golf is fun, and the architecture is nice, but not inspiring.

Tyler Kearns
 

[Brad Klein]

Both courses are wonderful. Solid golf and wonderful long views of the terrain. ND's a long way to go to get there for most golfers, but worthwhile and very affordable.

[David Schofield]

My wife and I recently took a vacation to North Dakota and played the Links of North Dakota, Hawktree and Bully Pulpit.  I was impressed by all three courses. 

Hawktree was the first course by Jim Engh that I've played and my expectations were met and exceeded.  The amount of earthwork that was no doubt required to fashion the course from the "semi-canyon" was relatively well hidden.

Bully Pulpit was absolutely fantastic, with holes 1-13, 17 & 18 being what I would consider (perhaps naively) wonderfully minimalist.  Those holes are put in stark contrast by 14, 15 and 16.  Hole 15, which I am sure has been discussed here before, was the greatest golf hole I've ever seen or played.

The Links of North Dakota was another story.  I feel a little like the jock in many a teen movie that can't see how beautiful the nerdy girl is just because she's has on a pair of glasses.  Though I could see the wonderful architecture, it was quite obscured by the horrible condition of the course.  Several greens and most of the tee boxes were less than half grassed.  Large portions of many fairways were barren or full of crabgrass.  I can only imagine that upper North Dakota has suffered through a terrible dry spell.  They had extensively slit-seeded, so the condition may improve.  We were originally scheduled to play 36 holes one day but left after 18, quite disappointed.  I would still consider myself a fan of the course, and recommend it to others, but I couldn't force myself to play another round that day (it also happened to be the last day of our trip, which may have also been a factor).

[Ron Farris]

I played The Links quite a few years ago.  I played Hawktree and Bully Pulpit last year in the course of a couple of days.  They are all three wonderful golfing experiences.  I personally am not as overwhelmed by Hawktree and the Links as others in the golf world, but they worth seeing.  I had the greatest time playing Bully Pulpit in steady 30 mph winds.  For most people might have played a little too difficult from the back tees.  I seldom keep score when I play alone and from the back tee when first visiting a course.  Bully exceeded expectations, Hawktree was what I expected and the Links also was below what I expected.  Hawktree was Plush, Plush, Plush.  For me it did not play as linksy as the other two courses. 

If you are a golfer and you are in North Dakota, by all means go play these courses.  They are very affordable and fun. 

[Doug Ralston]

Links is a sad story. It was in great shape a few years ago, and getting national acclaim in several places. But it is SO out of the way that it has not been able to pay for itself. The conditions have gone massively downhil. Last year i read that it was for sale, lock, stock, and barrel, for $200K. For a former Top 100 course, that is a depressing tale.

Never know when you can find some very nice surprises in obscure areas. And Red Mike is certainly that. Buy it, you'll like it!

Doug

[rchesnut]

I played all 3 last summer, and I think they're all well worth the trip to that area.  I agree with Ron,  Bully Pulpit should be on your list as well.  The drive between the courses is really special, and the courses are all good and quite scenic.  A very good value for your dollar as well.  I didn't think that the Links was in bad condition when I played it, it was probably my favorite course of the 3 and well worth the drive. 

[Joe Bentham]

if its for sale for 200,000 lets buy it...

[Chip Gaskins]

$200k doesn't seem correct....seriously

[John_Conley]

$200k doesn't seem correct....seriously

Chip, it went to auction about five years ago and sold for about $1.2 million if memory serves...no more than a lot of houses.

The place might actually have a negative enterprise value since it is so remote that you are virtually certain to sustain operating losses.

[Jim Johnson]

John, I think the amount was closer to $500,000...
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,2274.msg44400.html#msg44400
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,7473.0.html

It is remote. And I'd be surprised if they get anything over 10,000 rounds per year. At $60 a pop, that's not much revenue...
http://www.thelinksofnorthdakota.com/public/index.php

Last year we golfed Hawktree, Bully Pulpit, and The Links in late August. A few pictures are below of the trip...

The Links of North Dakota:
Approach shot to green of #1, 407 yds. par 4...


Behind green on 505 yd. par-5 4th...


185 yd. par-3 8th hole...


11th hole, 139 yards


Behind #13 green, 369 yds. par-4...


Drop shot #17, 232 yards par-3...



JJ

[Garland Bayley]

I must remind you that Doug Ralston has not been to the Links of ND, so what he writes is hearsay.

I have not played Hawktree, but I have played the Links of ND and Bully Pulpit three years ago. The Links of ND is a great course, and can give a real windy links experience. There were a few conditioning issues when I played there, but the condition was no worse than I found at Black Mesa a year later. I really enjoyed Bully Pulpit too. It has a great finishing run from 13 through 18.

[Jim Johnson]

Sorry John, didn't see your comment on that other thread that Chip started until after I'd posted here. Interesting stuff.

And, interesting to note the green fee this year at The Links. I thought we'd paid about $40 last year. Conditions weren't too bad last August, but, they'd just punched the greens. Hawktree's too.

JJ

[Eric_Terhorst]

Cory, I just came back from ND and the answer to your question is: Yes.  The "Triple Challenge" all three courses for $140 + cart fees if you need them, is a steal.  The Links of ND is spectacular, ignore the comments about conditioning, there are some problems but the course overcomes these.

and this is a terrific place to stay:  http://www.kotaray.com/

[Matt_Ward]

Links of ND is a wonderful layout by Stephen Kay but it's not worth treking the long distance to play it. Candidly, I don't see the course really taking off until you get to the par-5 7th. The par-3 8th is a treat -- especially when the pin is cut hard right.

The back nine is the better of the two halves with the par-3 17th and the uphill par-5 18th being two good closers. There are also two solid par-4's on the back side -- believe they are the 14th and 15th holes.

No doubt the price side of the equation is a powerful lure and the facility should be commended for keeping things so modest. However, the sheer isolation is in many ways the driving force for the appeal of the place. When you head to Ray, ND you will be a-l-o-n-e for miles and miles.

In regards to Hawktree - a good Jim Engh layout but he's done better in other situations with the likes of Lakota Canyon Ranch, Redlands Mesa, etc, etc. If I had to decide between the two I'd take Hawktree over LND. I really liked the short 3rd hole and the holes on the hillier end of the front side.

However, if you need a Dakota golf fix head to Rapid City and play The GC at Red Rock. Simply underappreciated as a top public course - a good bit more in terms of overall quality than other LND or Hawktree. The local muni Meadowbrook is also a decent alternative.

Bully Puplit was also mentioned and it's a fine layout in Medora, ND -- but you have to wait until the final few holes for the architecture to incoporate the unique dimension of the Black Hills.

I would say the par-3 15th is one of the best short holes you can play in all of public golf in the USA. The hole is a mere flip shot to a green that calls upon the most skilled of shots. Golf in the Rapid City areas is quite inexpensive and not as isolated (far away) as the northern extremes of ND. The Devils Tower GC in nearby WY is also worth a play.

[Doug Ralston]

I must remind you that Doug Ralston has not been to the Links of ND, so what he writes is hearsay.

I have not played Hawktree, but I have played the Links of ND and Bully Pulpit three years ago. The Links of ND is a great course, and can give a real windy links experience. There were a few conditioning issues when I played there, but the condition was no worse than I found at Black Mesa a year later. I really enjoyed Bully Pulpit too. It has a great finishing run from 13 through 18.

Garland;

You are right. I was indeed speaking from someone elses experience; someone who took my advice to go there, and reported on the sad conditions. That was two summers ago. If it has since improved, I am nothing short of thrilled. This trip, to these three courses, is on my wish list, and I have recommended it to several simply based on pix and heresay from those who have been.

If I left the impression I had gone myself, I apologize for it. I very much want the info about conditions and about sale price to be wrong, or at least to be improved. I still hope to play there.

Doug

[Greg Murphy]

All three courses are worth going out of the way to play (duh). How far out of the way is a personal choice. Bully Pulpit is extraordinarily understated except for the hoodoo holes, which are spectacular, though, in such stark contrast to the other holes they give the course a disconnected feel. As a drive by, hit and run experience, (which is what the course due to its location really must be) the high holes are the highlight but for regular play, they would become an imposition.

Of the three courses, I'd bet Hawktree appeals most to the average golfer. It has very defined "constructed" looking features such as bunkers and ponds, placed in a pleasant prairie grasslands valley setting. Definitely a cart course. On the way to the PGA Championship at Hazeltine a few years ago, my family played Hawktree and Links of North Dakota and my wife and kids definitely were more impressed by Hawktree.

The Links of North Dakota is my favorite. It doesn't seem to try as hard hard as the other two. It just presents a good mix of holes, lots of subtle visual camouflage (probably why I like it the most) and fantastic long range vistas. Unfortunately, the first and eighteenth holes are the weakest so its opening and closing note may not leave the best lasting impressions. Finally, it is the most walkable of the three (Bully Pulpit is easier to walk except carts are needed for the high holes).

[Garland Bayley]

Links of ND is a wonderful layout by Stephen Kay but it's not worth treking the long distance to play it. Candidly, I don't see the course really taking off until you get to the par-5 7th. The par-3 8th is a treat -- especially when the pin is cut hard right.

...
Bully Puplit was also mentioned and it's a fine layout in Medora, ND -- but you have to wait until the final few holes for the architecture to incoporate the unique dimension of the Black Hills.
...

Matt always forgets the 2nd at ND, which he agrees is a fine hole, and the 4th which is a fine hole.

His geography places the Black Hills in ND, which would surprise Gutzon Borglum (sp?) to no end, because he must have carved the wrong mountain in that case.

[Ron Farris]

Not to put words in Matt's mouth, but I think he meant Badlands of North Dakota.  The Devil's Tower course is in the Black Hills of Wyoming, which is part of the Black Hills Forest which is predominately in South Dakota. 

[Jim Johnson]

A few more pics of the Links:

Behind the 3rd green, 145 yard par-3...


Tee shot on hole #4...


Tee shot on hole #5, 445 yard par-4...


Hole #6 above the lake, 465 yard par-4...


Hole #7, 560 yard par-5...


Side view of the green on the par-3 8th hole...


Tee shot on hole #9, par 4 of 346 yards...


Behind the 10th green, a par 5 of 570 yards...



JJ

[Phil McDade]

A couple of questions on the Links of ND:

Am I seeing things, or do folks have higher standards on conditioning than I do? (OK, almost everyone here on this board probably does.....) Does this appear to anyone else as a course in "horrible condition?"

Secondly, for a links in a drier-than-average part of the country, it looks pretty plush and green. I won't get into the links/faux-links debate here, but how does it play? Fast and firm? Somewhat F/F? Does the conditioning and design accomodate the winds common to this area of the country?

[Ron Farris]

You make a good point about conditioning.  For me, and I am talking shortly after it opened, the course was too plush.  The ball did not have the typical links roll and bounce to it.  I would not call it poor maintenance at all.  In fact, it was probably simply overwatered, as are most golf courses.

That was years ago, it probably plays real firm and fast now, if it is financially struggling.

[Jay Flemma]

I highly recommend going out there and driving out to Bully Pulpit as well.  You'll have a great time and see some rugged country!