[Patrick_Mucci]

The 8th green at NGLA has to be one of the great greens in golf from the perspective of the approach and recovery shots into it.

With the ability of modern day architects to move dirt at will, why haven't there been more fortress greens built in the last 40 years ?

The visual, and the thrill of the assault, the siege is one of the great challenges in golf.

If someone can post a few pictures of # 8  green, it would be appreciated.

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:

I would guess that's one of those features which most modern architects dismiss as "too severe."  It's okay to have a pond five feet off the edge of the green -- or even an island green -- because it's accepted by the golfer.  But most golfers dislike a hole where you can go back and forth across the green all day like a tennis rally.

I've seen a few, though.  The eleventh green at High Pointe (a par 3 falling off to all sides, with native scrub not far off line) is one of the most severe greensites I've ever built, and has given a lot of players fits.  Another which jumps to mind is a par-five green P.B. Dye built on the Moorland course at The Legends in Myrtle Beach ... it was so severe to the sides the only reasonable play was to lay up just in front of it and chip on!

Also, I can't recall just how well you can see the 8th green surface at National from the fairway -- but if you can't, most architects today would knock down the green a bit so you wouldn't have a "blind" approach, and ruin your fortress effect.

Would be curious as to your exact definition of a "fortress."

[A_Clay_Man]

Baxter Spann's 17th green at Black Mesa is one fortress that sure does challenge and inspire.

Doak, built one at TRC didn't you?

With the ability of modern day architects to move dirt at will, why haven't there been more fortress greens built in the last 40 years

Pat- It would appear thrill has been replaced with framing and challenge has been downsized to accommodate the golfer with more money than ability. In 1989 I can remember classifying this type of golfer as "those who can afford it, but don't know how".

[JSlonis]

Pat,

I also like this feature, and I have never played NGLA, so I can't comment on the 8th.  Perhaps the reason we haven't seen more of these greens is because they are severe in nature and only fit the surrounding land in very minimal situations.  The photo below is of the 13th green at Piping Rock.  A great short hole, about 300-310 yds from the back tees.  To me, this green does not look out of place in regard to its surrounds.  It is a very interesting strategic hole as well.  During the Met Am two years ago I saw several options taken.  Some guys were laying up to have a wedge approach, and some were trying to drive the green or get somewhere near it for a short pitch.  Either way it is a difficult short par 4.  This green has a small back shelf that leads to some scary hole locations.  If this type of green was created just anywhere I could see it looking extremely artificial and contrived.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I agree with Tom Doak.  Most of us are designing courses for "average public play" and are concerned with "speed of play" so the deep bunkers and highly elevated fortress green is deemed too difficult, thus putting it on the "near extinction list."

ADA regs - meaning any new green will require wheelchair access will put the full fortress green on the "extinct list."  Of course, we could simulate the fortress, having just the back of the elevated green near enough to graded to get the required 5% ramp.

[paul cowley]

  pat ....on a course we are opening soon, the green of the first hole is nestled in the center of a spur battery, surrounded by 8' ramparts on five sides.....as the green is a punchbowl wth elevated edges ,it creates a bowl within a bowl effect........does this qualify as a modern fortress ?

[Dan_Callahan]

I've never played there, but doesn't Pinehurst #2 have several fortress greens. I seem to remember watching lots of golfers chipping up, across, and then off a bunch of greens in 1999. (Wasn't that where Daly got so frustrated that he hit his ball while it was still rolling?)

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat, Would you consider the 2nd at Riviera a "Fortress Green," even though it has an entrance? Or better put, can Fortress Greens have an entrance, or do they have to be flied to get on them?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Callahan,

# 13 at Pinehurst # 2 might be considered a fortress green.

Tommy Naccarato,

I wouldn't consider # 2 at Riviera as a fortress green.

Tom Doak,

My definition would be a massive, steeply and highly elevated green with serious drop offs.

The putting surface at # 8 at NGLA is not visible from the fairway.

One of the brilliant illusions created on that green is when the hole is cut along the far right side of the green.  From the fairway, the pin looks like it's suspended on a gangplank 15 feet off the green.

Many who play the hole with the pin in those locations play safe, far left, leaving themselves with devilish recoveries or putts.   Those who attack the pin usually regret doing so, since the margins of error are so slight.

Jeff Brauer,

I can see your point on a public golf course, but I don't think the same holds true for a private golf course.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

If you are referring to the playability aspect, I agree. One or two fortress greens is fine, and perhaps even on public courses, for that matter.

If you speak of the ADA ramps, that depends, legally, on being a truly private club (less than 400 members, absolutely no outside functions, etc.) in which case, the law considers the place a "place of public accommodation" and requires ADA accessibility.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Brauer,

I find that the play of a sport, falling under the domain of ADA, is a case of misquided legislators.

Will more clubs have elevators, vis a vis Bel Aire ?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

So were talking about one way to get to the green then--fly it on correct? That the enitre green is fortified on all sides, and that strategically, the deceptive nature of the Redan is not in this category of Fortifications, correct?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

Correct,

It's purely a siege hole via the air.  A fortress.

Just picture # 8 at NGLA with its moat like front bunkers and steep walls leading high up to a platform green suspended high above it's approaching surroundings.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

In all seriousness, many will.  Often we have had clubhouses (and maintenance buildings) at our projects want to use the roof volume as a second story storage area.  ADA inspectors usually make noise about those needing elevators, because to not have one means that a disabled person would be discriminated against in hiring - ie, they couldn't get to the storage area on their own, because there are no assistive devices.

If a building has two stories, it needs an elevator.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat, in your initial post, I realized you were using NGLA #8, but I ask for compare to other complexes similar but offering an entrance, mind you a strategic one in the same aspect of the Redan. Call it the side door if you will. Are these not intelligent fortresses? What about Cypress Point #16. Could this not be considered a fortress to some degree? albeit it has the "side door."

[tonyt]

My view of a fortress green is like that of the original short hole at Yale. No side doors.

The important elements are as follows; A feeling of anything from mild anticipation to sheer terror at the prospect of MUST HIT GREEN. Hitting the green provides enormous relief. There must be black and white or life and death between making the putting surface and missing it. Any shot from off the green must in itself be intimidating. The player's plight is not eased at least until they have a putter in their hand.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

The lack of substantive change in elevation from the fairway or tee to the green would disqualify those holes lacking those features, and Fortress greens have no ladies aide to assist the golfer, vis a vis a redan.

Tony,

The 5th at Yale, like the 6th at NGLA is a short hole with the green sitting at or below the tee, and as such isn't a fortress green.

[George_Bahto]

[quote Tom_Doak )

"Also, I can't recall just how well you can see the 8th green surface at National from the fairway -- but if you can't, most architects today would knock down the green a bit so you wouldn't have a "blind" approach, and ruin your fortress effect."

...... instead of knocking down the green i think you could accomplish the "effect" with a fairway the same elevation as the green but have a huge, very scary, cut/hollow some 30 yards short of the green - then that "fortress" green!    interesting "?" label, pat

...... also a few years ago Karl had the from left side of that green cropped to putting height and if you landed anywhere near that front right area you were down into that narrow bunker, short left of the green (hardly swing a club in there if you were in the wrong section of it

[Mark_F]

 Maybe we are all so conditioned to wanting to see the challenges we attempt to come off that a really difficult hole (I'm assuming the 8th at NGLA is?  Sure sounds like one with a 'gangplank' pin position) requires perfect sight lines in order for customer satisfaction?

Aren't a lot of the developments in the USA semi-private/daily fee type courses?  I can imagine the travelling/casual golfer being mightily peeved if playing a hole like NGLA's 8th and not seeing a possibly 'career' shot come off.  

On the other hand, playing NGLA in itself surely qualifies as a thrill, so the course can get away with such features.

[Mike Erdmann]

Depending on how you liberal you are with the definition, John Fought's short 125 yard 6th hole at Langdon Farms on the south end of Portland, OR is a fun little fortress green (photo below).  The surrounds are mowed very tight, so any ball leaving the putting surface is virtually guaranteed to run to the bottom of the slope, a good 5 vertical feet or so below the putting surface.  It's a daily fee course that gets pretty heavy play, and people seem to enjoy the hole for it's uniqueness.

[Doug Siebert]

Patrick,

By your definition, would you consider the 9th at Kingsbarns a fortress green-within-a-green?  Not that I like that green AT ALL, but it sure seems like about the most extreme and contrived example of the fortress one could imagine using your definition.

[Gib_Papazian]

Gentlemen,

Is not the Redan, by definition, a *fortress?* Am I missing something?

Nice example at Piping Rock above, but is not the Redan there a clearer example of the term?

It is just a wall of grass, a sandy pit of perdition to the left and nothign to guide you but sky and hope.

[Gib_Papazian]

Mike,

Next trip to Portland, I am going to play that course just to see Fought's dainty little par-3. I cannot understand why there are so few holes of this type built in the modern era.

If you ask me, at 125 years, it is equipment-proof.  

[Dan_Callahan]

How about the 14th at Taconic? A slightly downhill, 175-yard tee shot (does it have to be uphill to qualify as a "fortress"?), the green itself is elevated and surrounded by bunkers. There is only one way to get to the hole—through the air. With the green falling away in all directions, it is a very challenging—and intimidating—shot.

[A_Clay_Man]

Here's the schematic from the 8th hole at TRC, in Lubbock.



and, Here's the 17th at Black Mesa from a terrible angle, but if one looks closely, that bunker complex comes all the way up the hill to the green. The right side is a side door. Without it, there would be few who could handle the precision needed to hold the green.

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