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ForkaB

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #75 on: April 09, 2004, 03:12:14 PM »
Tommy

Give me a feckin' break, as my Irish friends are wont to say to me......

You asked for a comment on the pictures, not on the golf holes.  I'm ecstatic that you now understand the difference between the two!  It hasn't been easy, but I feel we have made some progress with you.  Keep it up!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #76 on: April 09, 2004, 03:36:05 PM »
Tommy Naccarato,

The 1938 aerials tell us that drastic change had already taken hold in the form of tree overgrowth.

I doubt that SC will experience significant changes in the forseeable future, it is what it was intended to be, and remains faithful to that goal.

T_MacWood

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #77 on: April 09, 2004, 10:20:29 PM »
I have a question.

With modern technology couldn't the second and eighteenth's wall of sand be reestablished?

Another question.

Who out there believes Tom Fazio has spent much time researching the evolution of PVGC?

I know his uncle was the pro at one time, but TF doesn't impress me as someone interested in the least with historic architecture...excepting what personal mark he can leave on a landmark.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2004, 01:25:16 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Have you ever seen the short course that Fazio designed and built ?

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #79 on: April 10, 2004, 01:34:01 PM »
Pat,

I have to agree with you.  If I showed most people on here the pictures I have of the short course and said it was the main course they would not know the difference..

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #80 on: April 10, 2004, 03:49:38 PM »
Careful Pat - Don't you mean that Fazio "co-designed"? Also, the maintenance crew built it.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #81 on: April 10, 2004, 06:01:21 PM »
SPDB,

I referenced that the work was done in-house when I responded to Tommy Naccarato yesterday.

I'm not sure of the % ER and TF contributed, but, I think you'd have to accept that it was Fazio's design work, not Ernie Ransome's

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #82 on: April 10, 2004, 08:59:55 PM »
Sean -

I realize you and Pat hold yourselves up as the arbiters of all things GCA, but I believe Tommy addressed your question. He stated that he believes Fazio, in his capacity as consulting architect (which has been trumpeted to the entire golf world), is responsible for the current setup of the course. You are of course free to disagree with this belief - frankly, without input from a member or the green committee, we'll never know for sure - but it is a bit disingenous to claim that Tommy hasn't addressed your question (kind of like Pat claiming that you don't answer his questions... :)).

I'm still voting for the 1920s setup, but, alas, my vote doesn't count for much, even with this astute crowd (or maybe I should say especially with this astute crowd).
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #83 on: April 11, 2004, 12:15:40 AM »
Thank you George. Your vote always counts for me!  8)

T_MacWood

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #84 on: April 11, 2004, 12:37:25 AM »
Pat
What does the short course have to do with Tom Fazio researching (or not researching) the architectural history of PVGC? Was the short course based on a historic (1920's-1930's) form of the course or the golf course as he found it in the 1990's?


Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #85 on: April 11, 2004, 01:41:07 AM »
Its unfortunate that I didn't go see the Short Course, but I do have to admit that if given the chance, I would much rather go have more of a look at the genius of the original--to me, thats the real Pine Valley! And for every minute in the classroom, that much more of an education I'm going to have.

I'm sure the Short Course is charming, but if I was waking-up in my bed just off of the 5th tee tomorrow morning, after having one of the finest nights sleeps I've had in years--I still wouldn't even give it a second thought where my interests of the day were to be had.

That is the secret of Pine Valley--relish every waking moment!




Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #86 on: April 11, 2004, 04:31:13 AM »
I realize you and Pat hold yourselves up as the arbiters of all things GCA, but I believe Tommy addressed your question. He stated that he believes Fazio, in his capacity as consulting architect (which has been trumpeted to the entire golf world), is responsible for the current setup of the course. You are of course free to disagree with this belief - frankly, without input from a member or the green committee, we'll never know for sure - but it is a bit disingenous to claim that Tommy hasn't addressed your question (kind of like Pat claiming that you don't answer his questions... :)).


George,

I find it really difficult to understand how we can even begin to try to even guess what sort of involvment Tom Fazio has at the club...I don't see the point.

He is not the only architect that is a member by the way...

I find it weird that Fazio should get the blame for maintenance methods on a golf course of which he is only a member.  We don't even know if he even sits on a committee..

What if he has recommended to remove trees from certain areas...?  Do we know if he has or hasn't?


Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #87 on: April 11, 2004, 07:44:35 AM »
Tom MacWood,

If you saw the short course, the answer would be self evident.

But, since you haven't seen it, you're in the dark on this one.

T_MacWood

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #88 on: April 11, 2004, 09:48:28 AM »
Pat
Thats what I thought...the short course has nothing to do with his understanding (or lack of understanding) of the evolution of PV (or perhaps your own historical knowledge).

I know you have been greatly impressed with Fazio, Ransome and Co.'s ability to replicate the look of the course circa 1990.....and I know you believe they should be given credit where credit is due...if that is your point.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2004, 10:07:37 AM by Tom MacWood »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why this thread is a farce
« Reply #89 on: April 11, 2004, 10:32:01 AM »
George -

We have Tommy starting a thread under the title "Why I dislike Fazio" and it shows a picture of the 14th. Some questions, which despite your belief to the contrary, remain unanswered:

1. Tommy doesn't know when the pic was taken. Therefore it may reflect work by Fazio or it may not.
2. Tommy can't identify what about the photo he dislikes so much (except for the seeming "clean and manufactured look," which even he has to concede is no different than 10,20,30 yrs ago).
3. More to the point, Tommy has no idea of whether Fazio ever worked on the hole that serves as an example of why he hates Fazio.

Tommy and your belief that an architect is now responsible for course setup must come as unwelcome news to the GCSAA, and to Rick Christian and crew who have done most of the work at PV even before Fazio showed up in a professional capacity.

This is yet another example of the "Drive-By," a very popular technique among some of our more vociferous Western posters, taking their strategy from 1990's South Central assasination technique (oddly enough the geography supports the theory as well, coincidence?)

Here it takes the form of "I hate Fazio because of this." And when "this" has nothing to do with Fazio, the rejoinder is that "OK, let's talk about other reasons why I hate Fazio", or "let me offer other theories on why Fazio is probably responsible for this."  The lesson here is do your (some?) homework before you lodge criticism. Tommy did zero.

George, excepting the trees, what difference do you see between the early  pictures, and the picture Tommy used to start this thread that relates to "course setup".

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #90 on: April 11, 2004, 10:39:32 AM »
Sean,

'George, excepting the trees, what difference do you see between the early  pictures, and the picture Tommy used to start this thread that relates to "course setup"'

Diddly squat...

In fact I would say that the Tommy photo looks better than the 1983 photo!!! ;)

Brian

ps If you look at the photo just after seeding the bunker edge is just as clean as today..
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #91 on: April 11, 2004, 10:41:22 AM »
Tom MacWood,

Would you explain your definition of the "evolution" of Pine Valley, a golf course that is mostly, architecturally unchanged since the day it opened,  save for tees.

SPDB,

I agree with you, if someone's going to make an allegation, posting pictures, they should have the facts to support their position, rather then just making general statements that may have no basis in fact.

The fact that the picture can't be dated, and
The fact that Fazio's involvement can't be documented, would seem to indicate that the basic premise is seriously flawed, not to mention that it's an improper allegation, or a breach of ethics.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2004, 10:45:32 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

T_MacWood

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #92 on: April 11, 2004, 12:02:23 PM »
Pat
The 2nd and 18th green surrounds are two examples...did TF & company replicate the historic look of PV holes or did they replicate the contemporary presentation? If they chose the historic presentation...than you are right about the short course.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #93 on: April 11, 2004, 02:59:46 PM »
The following post is trying to be done in the same thoughtful vein as Sean's, and where accusations run supreme--after all, we are all friends here right? ;D

Sean,
Once again you prove that critique can and does get to you.

My dislike of Tom Fazio stems from his inability in properly giving sound advice to every classic courses he consults with, or what YOU think is actually good work.

You want to talk about drive-by killings? So far we have the magical changes at Riviera, the introduction of a style of golf architecture that sticks out like a sore thumb at Bel Air #8; A sypathetic restoration to 1931 Merion which features a bunker style that never existed; Mayan pyramid tees at Oakmont that they're already talking about getting rid of; the built-up Tillinghast bunker style of Winged Foot that even Pat Mucci admits he doesn't care for; Destruction of the best holes at Inverness and others ad infinitum.

So when we talk about drive-bys, I understand, because as a golf course lover I'm usually on the recieving end of the gunfire in my hood, and usually its "Masta T" Fazio and his cru that's doing the shooting.

No matter where Dr. Fazio performs his surgery on classic courses--it is atrocious, and thats what worries me the most about Pine Valley. Certainlly a neighborhood that doesn't need that type of gang hanging around looking at ways to make the next dollar.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #94 on: April 11, 2004, 03:02:16 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Could you be feature specific with regard to what you're talking about on # 2 and # 18 when you reference green surrounds ?

The term, "green surrounds" is far too vague.
 
Also, how do you define "contemporary" look ?
Is it how the course looked in 1964, 1974, 1984, 1994 or 2004 ?

Tommy Naccarato,

In all fairness to SPDB, let's not jump to other golf courses, let's stick to Pine Valley and # 14, which was the subject of your thread.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2004, 03:08:44 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #95 on: April 11, 2004, 03:02:20 PM »
Pat, my critique is over the look. I stated that from the very beginning. You and others may like it, personally, I think it is anything but "Valley-like."

That is my opinion, and I'm sticking to it!

JakaB

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #96 on: April 11, 2004, 03:09:01 PM »
So Tommy...it is all about the "look" with you.  Just go to a local bar with cable and watch the ball roll along the ground at Augusta....It proves everything you ever said to be wrong, wrong, wrong.....It's not the size of the modern course..It's the smallness of the current champions..

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #97 on: April 11, 2004, 03:13:09 PM »
Tommy Naccarato,

I think the term, "the Look" is far too vague.

To be fair, I think you have to be feature specific.

You know my preference is for the look as evidenced by the 1922-1925 aerials and ground photos, with some added tee length.

I'm not so sure that Fazio is responsible for the deviation from that look, and in fact, much was changed before Fazio found his way to Clementon, NJ ?

But, I have another question for you.

Could it be that the USGA influence is being exerted into the design elements of the golf course, vis a vis Pine Valley members ?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2004, 03:14:36 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #98 on: April 11, 2004, 03:21:05 PM »
Pat,
Yes, I think there is a possibility amongst the heirarchy of Golf that you must follow the line if you wish to walk in the line.

John K.,
You forgot to take your Prozac again this morning! You know what happens when you forget to do that. You start sounding Koo-Koo-for-Coco Puffs, and the natives get restless.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why I dislike Tom Fazio................
« Reply #99 on: April 11, 2004, 03:41:51 PM »
Tommy Naccarato,

I don't think its just a possibility, I think it's likely.

I'd hypothosize that that influence surpasses Fazio's