Why I dislike Tom Fazio................

[Tommy_Naccarato]

[Brian_Gracely]

Isn't that a picture of Buddy Marucci from "Great Golf Clubs of the American East"?  

Other than Fazio's membership, I don't see the connection.  

[Tommy Williamsen]

I don't know but it is reminiscent of 14 at Pine Valley.

[Brian_Gracely]

it is a picture of #14 at PVGC.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tommy,
Precisely!

Brian,
It unfortuantely doesn't sound as if you have had the chance to play Pine Valley, because its one of the very special places. Seeing this work as well as the continuing onslaught of tree growth is reason for my off-worded post. I apologize if it offends anybody, I really do, I just don't like what I see in this picture.

[SPDB]

Tommy - I don't get it. When is this picture from?

Let's not have another drive by - please qualify.

I owe you a call, I apologize but its been hectic here.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Not a problem Sean,

If indeed it was taken at another time, I will completely recant this post, apologize to all of the parties to whom I have offended.

However, am I the only one that thinks this picture wasn't taken all that long ago, and that the bunker work might be a little too clean?  After all, we are talking the Valley here aren't we?

[Brian_Gracely]

Tommy,

You're correct that I have not had the pleasure.  But I still don't understand why you feel this is a Fazio-related problem.  That would basically insinuate that Mr.Fazio is the dominant figure at the club and that the rest of the membership and their outside guidance is allowing him carte blanche for course setup.  Considering the scope of their membership, I find that hard to believe.  Is the recent tree-removal at Pine Valley nothing but a myth??

[Thomas_Brown]

Tommy - I thought you were concentrating on Ted Robinson  

[SPDB]

Tommy - To my untrained eye, I see nothing amiss here. The bunkering on #14 was never terribly wild because, I suspect, it is sort of formless melding with the pond. I am not even sure Fazio has touched 14 (or if he has I don't think it is reflected in this picture).

14, in my opinion, up until a few years ago was the hole most in need of work at PV. The encroachment of trees was stiffling.

Much needed tree clearing on the hole was conducted in-house. The fact that you can see the slope extending from the right front is a huge improvement of the view that used to be there.

Trust me I've spent an unfortunate amount of time on this hole - 10 strokes worth, once (2 of which were attributable directly to encroaching double penalizing tree growth!)

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Brian,
It is rumor, or at least in my circles, I have heard from a very noteworthy few that Mr. Fazio has over-seen or in this case cleaned-up the bunkering at Pine Valley. Given my great love for the place, I would find this to be very alarming, because Pine Valley is meant to be scrubby, unkept and most of all, very natural.

If you look at those bunker edges, they are way too clean. For a better view, pick up a copy of The Golden Age and tell me if you don't notice a difference. Most of all, they have also been preported to have an immense tree clearing program in place, and thats a great thing, but the cleaning-up of the bunkers, well, like I said, it alarms me and I hate to think of it looking like Shadow Creek when they're finished. After all, shouldn't it be the Pine Valley that is dictating what courses like Shadow Creek should look like? Or was it just my imagination that Pine Valley--a leader--has accepted the modern ideal and that it, like Augusta National is changing in a direction from the principles that made it the special place that it is.

Please someone who has been there as of late--tell me that I'm wrong.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean,
When I was there in 2000, many of the trees had been cleared showing he view that you have mentioned, or at least that was the way it was explained to me, that the green was close to the only showing, and not even all of it!

Maybe Mr. Fazio hasn't been here, and like I said, I'll apologize profusely and go out of my way to play Pelican Hill-South and like it. Still, I can't help to want to go look at lots of books to prove the point to myself. This is my first post since like Sunday, and it comes with the best of intentions, because I too love the hole, have almost birdied it the one time I played it, and look forward to dancing a cha-cha at the gate each and everytime I enter there.

So, does anyone have images of #3 from the last 6-18 months?

[SPDB]

I'll hold you to your word - Pelican Hill South, paying Full Freight w/Cart....smiling the whole time, wearing a Fazio Golf Shirt (which I will supply)

Good night.

I'd get some sleep, you are going to have to answer to the Doyen and, more terrifying, the Doyenne (PatM.) in the morning.

[Steven_Biehl]

I may be over my head on this one, because I have only been to Pine Valley once.  It was in late Nov. 2002.  The picture of 14 you posted does not look any different than the one I took, when I was there.  The cleanliness of the bunkers is quite comparable.  I do have picture of 3 taken at the same time, I will email it to you.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Thanks Steve, I'll clear you in on Spam Blocker!

Sean, Yes, I maybe fearing a fate worst then death on this one, but when I saw the picture, I actually looked at it three times not knowing what course it was! Quite an oddity for me, but shows that I very well might be losing it!

Still, I think the look of the hole is much to clean for me--Pine Valley wise.

Also given my new financial situation, I might be able to afford a trip to nearby Pelican Hills in about four years!

[johnk]

Tommy, I don't think you will need to apologize  - and shouldn't have to wear any Fazio shirts either.  While all I know about PVGC comes from GCA and the Nelson Shell match, I think it's safe to say that Fazio's bunker work has a much longer history than this picture.

To illustrate how Fazio's influence affects too many courses, I'll mention the trauma I suffered when the D.O.G at my local muni cited Fazio's bunker work (at Augusta and Riviera!) as inspiration for a great flattening, rounding and whitening of the course's bunkers.  Ugh...

And the smoking gun to present Perry Mason-style, if it ever comes to that:
His book: "Golf Course Designs"... wherein "he explains how he routes a course, where and why he sets bunkers and hazards, how he frames a hole for aesthetic appeal, how he sets greens and tees, when he leaves the landscape as he finds it, and why he brings in bulldozers to move what nature didn't provide to his liking."

[scratch]

Tommy,

At first I didn't understand exactly what you where getting at but, but, but - surely they aren't going to start formalising 'waste areas' at PVGC?? - Quick - someone make a citizens arrest!!!!!!!

Oh Please?

Hang on - 2010 America's '100 Greatest'

1. Cypress Point
2. Pebble Beach
3. Shinnecock Hills
4. Merion
.
.
.
.
.
.10. Pine Valley

I can see it now

[ForkaB]

Let me ask those who have been there.........

As a voyeur, my impression is that the "softening" of PV has been an ongoing process for some tiem.  The pictures posted a couple of years ago by Ian Andrews (?) were much tamer than what I was led to expect from other pictures I had seen (principally my 1976 editiion of the "World Atlas of Golf").

From those comparisons, I was inclined to believe that some of the most famous hazards might now best be called "Limbo's Half Hectare" and "The Naughty Man's Prostate."

Am I right, or wrong.........

Tommy

As for your initial statement, I blame Pat Mucci, Tom Paul and yourself for this sorry state of affairs, not Fazio--your unholy trinity obviously has more influence on the club than poor Tam..........

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Rihc,
Yes, you are right. We are pure unadulterated evil.

John Ong and John K,
Lets face it, many of us are probably afraid to say something to some extent, but I do think there should be some room for critique, or at least a little leeway. Pine Valley, regardless of any ridiculous ranking or rating will always be a special place in Golf's history. There are no other experiences that come close to it in regards to a club, its architecture and especially its history.

I just hope they can preserve all of that, unlike what is going on a too many other great classical clubs where certain "consultants" hang their hat. (so to speak)

[ForkaB]

"There are no other experiences that come close to it in regards to a club, its architecture and especially its history."

This seems to me to be a silly statement, Tommy.  Even though I have never been to PV, I can think of at least 5 clubs that would probably at the very least "come close" to it, by your criteria.  Hyperbole is a fine rhetorical device, but please don't confuse it with "fact."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

I'd say that it's unfair to compare a 1922 photo to a current photo, and blame the difference on Fazio.

If Fazio did work on a bunker in 2002, then perhaps the work should be compared to what existed in 2001.

I also noticed crisp bunker lines back in 1922.
Go to page 55 and look at the right side of the green and bunker on hole # 3.

I know TEPaul will disagree with me, but I've always favored a return to Pine Valley as evidenced by the picture hanging in the big room by the exit, or 1922-1925 as evidenced by Geoff's pictures in the "Golden Age"

Having played Pine Valley over the last 40 years I can tell you that I never played hole # 14 looking like it does on page 62 of Geoff's book, "The Golden Age of Golf Design", although I sure would have liked to.

I see the "tree" problem a little differently.

Tree growth is insidious, inperceptable from day to day, hence members and guests aren't aware of it for years.
But, a tree clearing program produces a stark contrast, a radical change that is immediately apparent to all, and I think that fact may be one of the biggest impediments to tree removal, the high profile visibility.

But, I'm with you, I'd like to see PV embark on a more aggressive tree and underbrush removal program.

[SPDB]

Pat - Well said, with one caveat - I think tree removal programs are also difficult, b/c many people like trees. Although it would seem impossible, at least to you and me, to think that people could deny the unmistakeable beauty of a treeless vista, such people exist - even at PV, I imagine.

Tommy -  This is yet another case of shoot first and ask questions later. You don't even know if Faz worked on this hole (either before or after this picture).

Have you played the short course? Have you ever read Fazio's writings about PV, and his initial reluctance to design the course? He was hesitant b/c he didn't think anything should be done to change PV...even adding a 9 hole course. I would find it hard to reconcile your beliefs that he's disfiguring the main course or putting his stamp on it, with his previously stated affections for the course, and his desires to preserve at any cost.

14 has always in my estimation been the least wild looking hole at PV. Absent tree clearing I don't think it looks terribly dissimilar to what Mike Miller depicted in his painting of the hole as it appeared in 1922 - If you want to blame Fazio for 70 years of tree growth, that is your own affair.  

[A_Clay_Man]

Could someone shed some light on exactly what us 'peasants' are seeing here?

Is there a drop from the fairway?

Does the creek(or is it a pond?) extend around the left and raps around the rear?

If the answer is yes on both questions, this reminds me of one of a par 5's at a little course outisde of Grand Rapids, Brigadoon. Effectionately known as bringadozen. And since I now know the second at Spy, is a copy of a PV hole, I wonder if I have golfed all the holes at PV, in some other incarnation, everywhere.

[JakaB]

This is one case where the trees make the hole better...I would guess the winds are harder to gauge and less consistant over the shot spectrum from tee to green....nothing quite like the a wind that flows in a shoot in front of a green and over the trees....you can't see it on the flag or feel it on the tee.

[Brian Phillips]

Adam,

It is a drop.  This point on the course is one of the high points of the course and this hole drops you down to the lake level. The next tee is just on the left of the picture.

The picture that Tommy has posted looks very similar to the time I played there in May 2002.  Much of the bunkering does have a similar sort of clean cut.

The rough part of PV is the bushes, scrub in the bunkers or waste areas.  The actual edging around the greens are all pretty much edged in a similar fashion as shown in the photo.

I would post pictures of examples but it is not my golf course so I don't feel I have any rights to do it.

It is the greatest course I have ever played...and I agree with Tommy about the club, it is a superb club and the atmosphere is perfect....although I not too sure about the history thing...it isn't even 100 years old yet...

Brian