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Paul Richards

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Roll back the ball?
« on: February 22, 2003, 08:54:30 AM »
"I am not totally against technology but they do have to put a governor on the golf ball ... perhaps even the administrators should just consider bringing back wooden-headed clubs."

-- Ernie Els, about the potential detrimental effect new equipment is having on the professional game.



-GolfWorld, Feb 21, 2003
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Matthew Mollica

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Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2003, 09:07:24 AM »

We've spoken about this lots.

Thanks for the post of the Els quote Paul.

An Australian based website has recently hosted a wonderful forum on "Has the ball gone too far?".

Unanimous support was expressed for a tournament ball.
No doubt, it is a popular sentiment on other continents.

I have two questions.

i. If there is a layer who regularly uses this site, what stands in the way of the game's governing bodies stipulating revised standards for testing / manufacture / conformity for balls to be used in professional golf tournaments. Surely, all that is needed is a revision of standards already in place for the ball today.

ii. Can anyone here on GCA think of how ball manufacturers would profit from making a tournament ball ? When there is money to me made, it will become reality.

Matthew
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

john stiles

Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2003, 10:58:05 AM »
as to question  ii)

I imagine that all buyers of Titleiest products have already paid for it.  

Titleist has already made a tournament ball in the sense that there was a version of the Pro V (according to Golfweek) that was used/tested by some professionals but was never marketed or sold to the general public.  All that work and effort and the golf ball was never sold to the public.

I imagine that cost was rolled into the price of all their products.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2003, 12:23:31 PM »
Can anyone here on GCA think of how ball manufacturers would profit from making a tournament ball? When there is money to me made, it will become reality.

- - -

Yes. It is another product that would have limited sales to tour players, but would offer everyday golfers an option to play a different game. A foursome might say, "Hey, let's all play the tour ball today -- it'll give us a change of pace and a chance to see who really hits it farther..."

You might also see a serious classic course require its use in much the same way that non-metal spikes have been required in recent years. Why would a course require the rolled-back ball? To control distance and restrict the player to hitting 220-235 yard tee shots, instead of more wildly thwacked 250+ tee shots, thus keeping the integrity of the course intact moreso thatn without.

Would it have loads of sales? Probably not. Maybe just 10 million units per year. But it gives golf another option. Options are good.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2003, 07:46:06 AM »
Who cares if the manufactuers make money? If in their infinite wisdom they cannot adapt to market climates and cannot find the 9 yr old sudanese who work for 10 cents an/hr versus the 15 cents they pay to those other greedy third world 4th graders, how will they ever be able to afford the newest and fastest jets, women and designer drugs?

Paul, why not just start stuffing featheries and play the game the way you want to play? Why care about the pros so much?

I don't mean to be antagonistic I just think this subject has been covered adnausium, by you.

It is just my Opine that it's not gonna happen, but for your sake I hope I am wrong. ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2003, 07:59:36 AM »
I believe a fair amount of golf balls (I'm not sure if a majority) are manufactured right here in the U.S. -- FYI.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

noonan

Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2003, 02:10:46 PM »
A good tournament ball would be the old US Royal hex dimple ball ;D

Jerry
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2003, 07:04:13 PM »
Jerry -- In our entry way we have a large stainless bowl with about 150 balls -- there is a Royal hex in there if you need it! (And I always thought the "hex" was it's curse...!)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2003, 03:16:22 AM »
Quote
Who cares if the manufactuers make money?

.... I don't mean to be antagonistic I just think this subject has been covered adnausium...


Adam,

I think it's pretty clear really.

The manufacturers are the single biggest obstacle standing between the pro game we see today, and that of the future where the pro ball is reality.

If there's no money in it, they will oppose the change until they breathe their last breath.

If there is profit to be realised, the manufacturers are more likely to participate.

As Sun Tsu pointed out centuries ago -
"If you know the enemy and you know yourself,
you need not fear the result of a hundred battles."


Matthew
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Enough

Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2003, 08:20:51 AM »
Paul Richards

Wow.  Another brilliant, original post from you.  I have never heard this concern or idea expressed before on this site.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2003, 09:52:49 AM »
I'm perplexed why Paul Richards gets bashed for wanting to add information to the ongoing discussion of what is probably the most important issue facing golf today. The equipment no longer matches the playing field, and everyone knows it -- including the players who benefit the most (Els) and the least (the average player.)

I care about what the pros do for two reasons: I find their game boring now (with the exception of events played on intelligently maintained classic courses like Riviera), and I don't want their game to change the golf courses I play.

Thanks, Paul. Keep the quotes coming. We can be agents for change here, but not if we don't speak up.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2003, 10:19:18 AM »

Quote
Paul Richards

Wow.  Another brilliant, original post from you.  I have never heard this concern or idea expressed before on this site.

Enough --

I wonder if you have ever heard this concern or idea expressed on this site:

Be man (or, of course, woman) enough to sign your nasty little posts  -- or just hold your tongue.

Thank you.

And thank you, Paul Richards, for risking the disdain of superior creatures such as "Enough."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2003, 06:46:15 PM »
Some things are worth repeating.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2003, 06:46:29 PM »
Some things are worth repeating.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2003, 07:14:31 PM »
Rick and Dan:

Thanks for the encouraging words.  

This topic isn't going away.

Sorry "Enough" - if you don't like to read my posts, then it's really simple - don't.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2003, 07:14:37 PM »
If more golf courses looked like the ones in Paul Turner's  Heathland post there wouldn't be any need for this post. Too bad.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

somalley

Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2003, 07:32:32 PM »
Alright Paul, I have to jump in.  All this discsussion on distance and no data to back up what effect it is actually having on scoring over a statistically significant sample.  Sure the boys shot some low scores at Kapalua and Palm Springs, but at resort courses designed for the average Joe they should tear it up! Particularly at Kapalua sans wind the whole week.  Only 27 of 142 competitors broke par this week at Riviera and only 49 broke par the week before at Torrey Pines.  My question to you is if only 19% of the world's elite can break par over four days even with the ball going so far why should we even consider changing a bedrock of our game to suit less than 1% of golf's population?  There are ways to challenge the world's best other than limiting distance and George C. Thomas showed that to us this past weekend!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2003, 05:21:19 AM »
Second reply to "Enough":

I hope you are hiding your identity because you are really a USGA muckety-muck or even Tim Finchem and are tired of getting battered for not doing enough to rein in this distance problem!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2003, 05:22:38 AM »
somalley:

How much longer do you think they can make Riviera?  The course is probably at its end of physical space.  Today's golfers are challenging it much as yesterday's golfers.  How about tomorrow's golfers since Riviera can't be expanded anymore?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

A_Clay_Man

Re: Roll back the ball?
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2003, 06:30:37 AM »

Quote
I care about what the pros do for two reasons: I find their game boring now (with the exception of events played on intelligently maintained classic courses like Riviera), and I don't want their game to change the golf courses I play.

Now, let's discuss what is actually happening and how it should bring about what is paramount to those of us who enjoy FUN golf.
Rick states accurately that the pro game has turned boring. Whether it be a function of the tv coverage or just how good these guys are is up for debate. But, and a big but look what has happened to the last two "classic" venues. They found themselves having to defend their course thru maintenance practices which has not only yielded more exciting golf but also more creative and thought provoking shotmaking from the pro's.

Isn't this the result "we" wanted?

I wanted to agree with Shivas' denoucemnet of annonymous posters and state up front that I have no problem being wrong on any subject and since most of this is opinion, wrong is subjective.
 Uninformed or opinions based on mis-information is another matter and that's your cue to chime in and straighten us morons out.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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