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TEPaul

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2004, 08:24:58 PM »
Michael Moore:

That little green at Castine G.C. you put up the photo of is so cool! Talk about simple elegance of functional architecture. Just looking at that bifurcated green, as you call, it one can just sense all the interesting things that can happen to the golf ball. I love that green!

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2004, 08:50:32 PM »
Great responses from everyone, for the most part proving my point, that Willie Park, Jr. is often overlooked for his early pioneering work, both in Great Britain and N. America.

Sunningdale and Huntercombe in the heathlands were two of the very first inland courses in the world to exhibit naturalness. Sure, Hutchinson was writing about it, Colt, Fowler, and Abercromby were lurking, but it was Park who first successfully adapted links principles and characteristics to inland sites. This should never be overlooked.

It seems, unfortunately, there are quite a few "short" courses that aren't necessarily "visually stimulating" throughout New England and Canada by Park that don't attract publicity because of scorecard yardage, and whatever else. Too bad really, 'cause I bet many of those Park courses are a lot more interesting to play than some of the modern behemoths built next door.

Hey Tyler, glad you're on my side  :) Perhaps you and I, Ian Andrew, and a few other like-minded individuals here in the Great White North will someday have opportunities to do something about the state of golf architecture in Canada.

As far as work on existing classics up here is concerned, I originally felt too, that modern golf architects were simply paying lip service to their predecessors, then "modernizing". But, as I've gotten a taste of golf course construction over the past 5 years, I've come to realize that implementing plans on the ground is very, very difficult.

I think the root of so much of the ill-conceived work on classic courses in Canada stems from poor direction, the resulting second rate construction work, and golf architects not supervising implementation of their plans in the field.

Perhaps I'm being too blunt here? Too bad  ;D
« Last Edit: March 30, 2004, 08:53:51 PM by Jeff_Mingay »
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mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2004, 10:14:22 PM »
   Jeff,

  I believe that Willie Park was responsible for some holes at

Glen Ridge,  NJ.   (20  miles  west of  NYC   )

  Happily,  Ron   Forse  will be probably doing some restoration work there   pretty   soon.

  I think  there may be  some neat greens at  Glen Ridge

T_MacWood

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2004, 06:28:11 AM »
There is no doubt in my mind that Willie Park is under appreciated. On the other hand I also wonder if he may over extended himself in N.America. Just here in Ohio there is a wide range in quality--Sylvania and Congress Lake excellent; Marion and Ashland a little shoddy. (Although I've always gotten the impression the quality of his work Canada was very high - I believe he had an office up there)

Some courses he designed and also built, others he just produced a plan...I suspect those courses can vary dramatically from very good to not so good.

Regarding Ocean City I get the impression it was something special. Prior to returning to the states in 1923 it was repeorted that Ocean City was going to be "the biggest sceme he had ever been asked to complete." Thats saying something.

In this same report it was also said he was the number one golf architect in America. I wonder how many history-minded GCA fans today knew that or would even agree with that?
« Last Edit: March 31, 2004, 07:16:42 AM by Tom MacWood »

Craig Disher

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Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2004, 09:17:07 AM »
Did Willie Park ever visit Royal Ashdown Forest? The green in Michael Moore's post looks like a slightly shrunken version of the first at RAF.





Jonathan Davison

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Re:Willie Park, Jr. New
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2004, 11:10:47 AM »
Mick Wall
Great to hear from somebody who hails from the north east, you will hear me rant about the north east of England all the time. The north of England must be the best value for golf any where.
Along with our great coastline we have Brancepeth Castle a wonderful Colt design around £25 for a day ticket.
Newbiggin is a rustic old fashioned links, in terms of the course it has some wonderful golf holes, really good strategic holes but it is probably only appreciated by a traditionalist. For the price of Gullane £85 you could play Dunstanburgh, Seahouses, Bamburgh and Newbiggin and I could recommend many more.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 01:52:59 PM by Jonathan Davison »

ForkaB

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2004, 12:07:06 PM »
Great picture, Craig

That should be sent to every green committee member who ever wants to ADD bunkers to their course.

PS--reminds me of a few of the greens on one of my wee Willie Park Jr. courses, Burntisland.......

T_MacWood

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2004, 12:47:03 PM »
I have no specific knowledge of Park visting Ashdown Forest, but I would be surprised if he hadn't...being based in London and playing numerous challenge matches any time, any place. Plus it was a very famous course.

That green looks very similar to 'The Table' a trademark of Park's, based on a green at Musselburgh. Supposedly he built at least one of these greens on every course he designed.

Art_Schaupeter

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2004, 10:50:24 PM »
I am currently working on a master plan for a Willie Park Jr. course in Kentucky, Bellefonte Country Club.  I have a plan from 1921, which indicates he is the designer, but the course was built over a period of years starting in '21 and extending into the early 30's, well after he had passed away.  Based on the timing of the construction and a variety of plans over the years showing variations to the original routing, it doesn't look to me like there are very many original greens left.  

On the other hand, you can see the quality of the routing from hole to hole.  The golf course sits on a fairly severe property with a lot of slopes in the fairways.  It is only about 6000 yards long, at a par of 71, but the small, sloping greens and the tough stances in the fairways if you don't play for position give the course some teeth.  Most of the holes work very well on this difficult site.  The few holes that don't have been re-routed over the years and don't match the original plan from 1921.

What courses in North America still provide the best example of Park's green style, and would be worth looking at?  I am still in the process of developing the master plan, and would like to stay true to Park's intent to the degree that that is possible.  At this point, I believe there are only 4 or 5 greens that might still be originals on the nine holes that were built first, presumably before he became ill.  The second nine holes I think still have seven original greens, but they were built after Willie had passed away.  They appear true to the original 1921 plan, but he wasn't around to see them built, and I haven't been able to determine who was.

Any thoughts or comments are appreciated.  It is tough finding much information on Willie Park.

Art

T_MacWood

Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2004, 08:12:11 AM »
Very interesting...I've never heard of Bellefonte...Park never listed it, probably because of the delay in construction. I wonder how many more Bellefontes are out there?

I don't know which courses in N.America would be the best examples of Park's green styles. In Ohio (and the Midwest)  Marion & Ashland are two course with Park 9's. I doubt he was involved in construction of either, Ashland does have his plans so it might be helpful. Congress Lake has a number of interesting Park greens, but they intermingled with Ross greens. Slyvania is probably the purest Park course in Ohio.

Michigan might be worth exploring--I'm not certain how well preserved Pine Lake and Battle Creek are, same with Highland in Indianapolis. From what I can tell, and based on what others have said, Olympia Fields is well preserved.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2004, 09:54:26 AM »
Art,

Of course, there's Sunningdale Old and Huntercombe... if you have the time and money to visit England in preparation for your forthcoming work at Bellefonte  :)
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