How would you improve Rustic?

[Pete Lavallee]

That was a great thread, thanks for pulling it back up Matthew. The trees on 14 were burned in one the fires several years ago. Perhaps the regulars will report on their current condition.

One great change that occurred was connecting the practice green to the 18th green making it one large continuos green. It now has the "Rustic collar" around it, so people can prcatice their collar shots before the round.

[David Kelly]

The course is just too soft.   It hasn't rained in Moorpark for months but you wouldn't know if from playing Rustic Canyon.  Except for a week or two it hasn't even been a hot summer in the area either. This year for the first time they have been using hoses and sprinklers to water problem sections in addition to the regular irrigation system.  I was telling Dan Grossman when we were out there the other day that 90% of the people who get on #16 in regulation do so by running their ball on and yet when we playing there was a irrigation house and sprinklers blocking 75% of the entrance.

The  course is doing what they can to keep the grass alive but the problem goes all the way back to the beginning of the course when the original sprinkler pattern didn't cover all of the fairway and where for the first 8 or 9 years of the course's existence they didn't aerate the course.  For the past couple of years they have aerated the greens and occasionally the collars but they have usually use a small tine and limited sand fill.  They have never aerated the fairways with a core tine. And this is ryegrass which I believe needs a lot of aeration and doesn't like to get saturated with water.  If they did aerate the fairways the right way I would bet that the plugs would be almost all thatch.

[Scott Weersing]

Yes, the course can be too soft to be considered fast and firm. The fairways are firm, the greens are firm, the collars and chipping areas are soft.

But what can you expect for a course that allows carts, and therefore, the types of grasses are limited.

Would you rather have burned out chipping areas with no grass because they don't water them, or the current state of soft chipping areas?

This goes back to you can design a course one way, but it is up to the maintenance practices to see if it will play as designed.

It is good to hear that the expanded the putting green. The one next to no. 18 was way too small.

I can't think of anything to improve Rustic Canyon except to water it less.

[Jeremy Abaranok]

As a club member and regular at Rustic, let me introduce myself by saying that there is absolutely zero that needs to be changed with Rustic, except perhaps a second 18 and a putting course.  I appreciate Ran giving me the opportunity to chime in here as I play there regularly.  With the 10th anniversary approaching, there are certainly some "refinements", as some would describe it, that could be made to ensure the design is played as intended.

I'll defend a couple of holes that have been attacked although I wonder if some of these issues mentioned above have been cured by the time.

#3 one of the better risk reward holes.  Aside from the obvious drive, the layup is demanding.  Go left and tempt the hazards and you are rewarded with a straight shot downhill.  Lay up to the right and there are mounds right of the green to challenge the approach.  The green also breaks uphill, which is a phenomenon you see at a couple of holes at rustic.

#7 looks much different as the wash has been cleared.  Yardage has been added from Hanse original (they mark all the original Hanse tee yardages on the card).  played as green tip red hazards (ie natural land that you cannot play from or enter and thus played like a water hazard).  Here, amongst other places at the course, is a refinement that could be made.  Many playable balls are deemed dead because of the "red-tip" hazards.  I think this is a county issue....

#13 No changes need to be made aside from lengthening the tee shot by 20 yards or so. One of the more interesting approach shots.  Here again is where we see the phenomenon of breaking uphill, as the course is severely slanted towards the entrance.  Were the hole to be lengthened it would play truer to the concept of the pitch and run approach, as this fairway really runs out and the hole plays shorter than its distance.

#15 From the pictures I've seen of Pine Valley (haven't had the pleasure of playing) this green looks to me like an homage to #2, with its rolling multi tiered green.  It provides a nice break as the previous hole and the coming holes are a bear, and it is a unique distance from the other par 3's.  This is the only dramatic uphill approach with a blind green, thus bringing more variety to the course.

#18 Playing really fast on the approach these days.  Interesting the complaints about the soft conditions but I have never played TOC.  Very hard to stop in front of the green during the club championship.  Softer these days with the rain, but I think this is bordering on playing too fast at times.

It's interesting the phenomenon of rustic getting harder as one plays more rounds and could certainly be a new thread in itself.  Aside from the variables of wind and pin position, I think RC has a certain ignorance is bliss component to it.  It all looks so open and easy....until you find yourself on the wrong side of 5 or 14 or 16 for that matter.  Every hole gives you a chance at birdie and also double bogey with countless line of play on the way.  You do not truly understand a hole at RC until you look back from the green to the tee. 

The course is an homage to the Golden Age of golf, with holes that do not deliberately plagerizing the originals.  It is to a certain extent, perfect as it is.

Oh, and I might throw in a redan somewhere for good measure   

[Jeremy Abaranok]

And one other thing - I agree with the previous posters about the bunker setups.  I would love to see the front areas of the fairway bunkers cleared to allow more balls to collect.  There's a reason why it is called a fairway bunker, and RC could take note from the recent work at LACC North course.

[James Brown]

Played it today and the conditions were ideal.  Fairways were super firm.  Collars and greens were just perfect.  As beautiful a setting as I have seen for a golf course and the green complexes were incredibly interesting. 


Here is one suggestion for improving the course:  Lengthen the 4th or 8th holes by about 20 yards.  I hit the same club on 4 and 17 and the same club on 8 and 15. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Played it today and the conditions were ideal.  Fairways were super firm.  Collars and greens were just perfect.  As beautiful a setting as I have seen for a golf course and the green complexes were incredibly interesting. 


Here is one suggestion for improving the course:  Lengthen the 4th or 8th holes by about 20 yards.  I hit the same club on 4 and 17 and the same club on 8 and 15.

Play a different tee on each hole. Play #4 at 166, play #8 at 123, play #6 at 216, play #15 at 138 and #17 at 189.

For me, that would be 7 iron, PW, 3-Hybrid, 9-iron and 5-iron (or less...that one is downhill, right?)

[Sam Kestin]

For my tastes, there are too many unnecessarily blind shots. The one-shot fourth hole is a perfect example. It's a great hole but you'd never know it standing on the tee because all you're doing is firing it blind over that knob/bunker and hoping the ball ends up in a viable section of the green.


I get that they didn't want to move a lot of earth and maybe that little knob/bunker was already there--but this hole (to my mind) would be 100x better if they either elevated the tee a bit so you could see over the knob or just blew the knob up entirely. It serves no more of a strategic purpose than providing a blindfold for you to wear on the tee.


It's one thing to have blind shots in an options situation--you can take the blind route for the bigger reward or put the ball somewhere you can see for the more safety play. It's an entirely separate matter to have a blind one-shot hole where there is no real visible option.


I feel similarly about the 6th hole--you can't really see the green (especially if the hole is located on the left side) because of the wash. So again (and for the 2nd time in 3 holes)--I'm playing a par three where I feel like there might as well just be a blindfold on the tee. Or the sun in my eyes.


If you raise the tee box a little bit (not much) you'd see the entire greensite--which allows you on the tee to appreciate the shot at hand.


A lot of people have strong feelings about blind shots. I'm okay with some (like the tee shot at the 14th if you try to cut the corner) but very rarely do I enjoy a one-shot hole where I am absolutely clueless as to what the hole is when I'm standing on the tee.

[Alex Miller]

For my tastes, there are too many unnecessarily blind shots. The one-shot fourth hole is a perfect example. It's a great hole but you'd never know it standing on the tee because all you're doing is firing it blind over that knob/bunker and hoping the ball ends up in a viable section of the green.


I get that they didn't want to move a lot of earth and maybe that little knob/bunker was already there--but this hole (to my mind) would be 100x better if they either elevated the tee a bit so you could see over the knob or just blew the knob up entirely. It serves no more of a strategic purpose than providing a blindfold for you to wear on the tee.


It's one thing to have blind shots in an options situation--you can take the blind route for the bigger reward or put the ball somewhere you can see for the more safety play. It's an entirely separate matter to have a blind one-shot hole where there is no real visible option.


I feel similarly about the 6th hole--you can't really see the green (especially if the hole is located on the left side) because of the wash. So again (and for the 2nd time in 3 holes)--I'm playing a par three where I feel like there might as well just be a blindfold on the tee. Or the sun in my eyes.


If you raise the tee box a little bit (not much) you'd see the entire greensite--which allows you on the tee to appreciate the shot at hand.


A lot of people have strong feelings about blind shots. I'm okay with some (like the tee shot at the 14th if you try to cut the corner) but very rarely do I enjoy a one-shot hole where I am absolutely clueless as to what the hole is when I'm standing on the tee.

Sam before the flood at Rustic the 4th hole was totally open in front. Much of the mud/dirt that washed down the canyon was left there to create that feature in front of the green. Many agree with you on the preference to eliminate that feature. There are definitely a few other blind shots around Rustic, and the constant slope of the canyon does make depth perception tricky in some places, but I can't think of any truly blind shots.


Shots that are difficult to perceive often allow for previews earlier in the round though. The drive in and a peak at the 6th, 7th, and 8th greens while playing the prior holes let the golfer know where they should play. The approach to the 13th can be semi-blind at times but IMO that green is forgiving and fair for limited visibility. Same goes for 18. I'm not sure how the tee shot on 14 is blind though...


15 is semi-blind, but the golfer can definitely tell where the pin is on the green from the tee. Putting the merits of that hole aside, I don't think visibility is the factor that holds it back.




As for par 3 lengths, I think Ron nails the tee advice. The 6th hole is actually 200yds from the blues but on weekends they do not put the tees back there in order to speed up play. A certain wind direction can also cause the holes to play more similar in length, but a typical round for me at Rustic will have me hit the following clubs on the par 3's (with some small variations) 7i, 4i, 9i/PW, 8i, 5/6i. Those are all from the Blacks, and it's very possible that that tee combo is better balanced than the blue or whites too.

[Gib_Papazian]

Having played Rustic once or twice a year since starting this thread 12 years ago (the last time with The Emperor last September), I still have a difficult time finding much fault with it. If I'm going to nitpick, I hate the driving range aesthetic - it just ruins the expansive visuals. Not crazy about the goofy walk down the dirt road to the #13th tee and wish there was something on the right side of the 12th fairway to give the hole a bit of geometry.

However, I've finally got one serious gripe - and one that did not occur to me at the age of 44, when the ball, she still fly like a bird. The Blue markers are still perfectly appropriate for me - albeit with a couple more clubs necessary to reach the green.

Sadly, I cannot reach the fairway most of the time off the 14th tee. We had a little breeze in our faces and unless I aim towards the far right side of the landing area, the shot has more muff than I got johnson. Now, you can easily sneer "go play the whites you pussy-ass," but the fact there is only one shot a reasonably skilled player cannot negotiate from those tees, my suggestion would be to build another tee. There is nothing there but a wash, so that would seem to be a reasonably simple fix.

Maybe I'm an aging chop, muttering into his coffee about the good old days, but I can still shoot a pretty good number when I get it going, so it seems reasonable not to present a difficult forced carry - either that, or extend the fairway landing area a bit further back towards the tee.

And yes, I am whining.     

[Alex Miller]

Having played Rustic once or twice a year since starting this thread 12 years ago (the last time with The Emperor last September), I still have a difficult time finding much fault with it. If I'm going to nitpick, I hate the driving range aesthetic - it just ruins the expansive visuals. Not crazy about the goofy walk down the dirt road to the #13th tee and wish there was something on the right side of the 12th fairway to give the hole a bit of geometry.

However, I've finally got one serious gripe - and one that did not occur to me at the age of 44, when the ball, she still fly like a bird. The Blue markers are still perfectly appropriate for me - albeit with a couple more clubs necessary to reach the green.

Sadly, I cannot reach the fairway most of the time off the 14th tee. We had a little breeze in our faces and unless I aim towards the far right side of the landing area, the shot has more muff than I got johnson. Now, you can easily sneer "go play the whites you pussy-ass," but the fact there is only one shot a reasonably skilled player cannot negotiate from those tees, my suggestion would be to build another tee. There is nothing there but a wash, so that would seem to be a reasonably simple fix.

Maybe I'm an aging chop, muttering into his coffee about the good old days, but I can still shoot a pretty good number when I get it going, so it seems reasonable not to present a difficult forced carry - either that, or extend the fairway landing area a bit further back towards the tee.

And yes, I am whining.   

Hey you pussy-ass, go play the whites  .


But seriously is it less than a 50/50 prop of being able to clear the wash with a moderate wind into from the blue tees when aiming way right? If so, I say go play the whites. If not, then it's fair, albeit a tougher challenge than you'll see in most revered modern par 4's.


14 is a true par 4.5 for any player when the wind is blowing into (which is great since that means 13 will have been downwind and also close to a par 4.5). We've played together, Gib. I hit the ball decently far but only sometimes straight. Playing the blacks at RC which are 7,000 yds and a good yardage for me makes 14 a VERY tough hole. I'll aim way right off the tee and have had 2 iron or more into 14 more than a few times. I fucking love it. You don't see many modern par 4's that ask this much from a player, and the inclusion of a cape feature makes it all the more fun.


There are areas where I feel Rustic could be improved (the front of 4, the swale on 6, 7's green, re-working some of hole 10 [not the green], hole 15, and some of 18's lost fairway) so I hope those reading don't see this as me blindly defending Rustic entirely. But I don't think 14 ought to change. I mean they could build a special tee further up for you, but the orientation of the wash would likely put it at risk in heavy rains. I also feel like it goes against your urging to others to "man up" in other threads  .

[Gib_Papazian]

Alex,

Now look pumpkin, did I object to the hole being 448 yards uphill? No I did not - although the fact you're insane enough to play the BLACK TEES makes me question whether you secretly play golf as some kind of twisted Calvinist form of self-abuse.

Next time, you play in Fortson's group with the super-studs.

In the real world, a 6,600 yard golf course (Blue Tees, usually) carries with it an expectation of overall challenges presented commiserate with the abilities of a decent single-digit player.

Into the wind, the tee shot on #14 is also uphill and even to reach the far right side of the fairway (given the breeze) required an equivalent tee shot of 210 yards or more. There ought to be a safe play (turn it into a three shot hole, which is perfectly fair) where a shorter hitting senior can reach the fairway and use their skills to still have a shot at par.

For instance, how about, on an otherwise reasonable golf course, the Superintendent grew deep rough on one hole (only) between the Blue Tee down the fairway 225 yards? My opinion is this presents a ridiculous challenge.

Again, on #14, if the fairway on the right (even a tongue) was pushed back towards the tee a bit, we could play it as a par-5 and finish the hole.

As it is, the tee shot is the equivalent of trying to smash one over a lake - with a guarantee many players who have no difficulty with the rest of the golf course will find it impossible to finish the hole.

And Alex, I have played with you . . . . . . . and I was always hitting first - even after killing one.
 

     

[Alex Miller]

Alex,

Now look pumpkin, did I object to the hole being 448 yards uphill? No I did not - although the fact you're insane enough to play the BLACK TEES makes me question whether you secretly play golf as some kind of twisted Calvinist form of self-abuse.

In the real world, a 6,600 yard golf course (Blue Tees, usually) carries with it an expectation of overall challenges presented commiserate with the abilities of a decent single-digit player.

Into the wind, the tee shot on #14 is also uphill and even to reach the far right side of the fairway (given the breeze) required an equivalent tee shot of 210 yards or more. There ought to be a safe play (turn it into a three shot hole, which is perfectly fair) where a shorter hitting senior can reach the fairway and use their skills to still have a shot at par.

How about, on an otherwise reasonable golf course, on one hole the Superintendent grew deep rough between the Blue Tee down the fairway 225 yards? My opinion is this presents a ridiculous challenge. Again, on #14, if the fairway on the right (even a tongue) was pushed back towards the tee a bit, we could play it as a par-5 and finish the hole.

As it is, the tee shot is the equivalent of trying to smash one over a lake - with a guarantee many players who have no difficulty with the rest of the golf course will find it impossible to finish the hole.

 

     

The hole is downhill overall and even the tee shot to the right fairway is as well; the canyon is deceiving you. And it's 185 yds from the back of the blue tee box (from which they often have the tees moved up. It's as little as 160yds to reach the fairway from the front portion of the tee box in fact, maybe a touch less. Unless played into an abnormally strong wind the shot does not require more than a 200 yard carry from the back portion of the box. And if the wind is too strong, I'd simply suggest moving up to the front of the tee box or to the white tees.


If 90% of single-digit players playing the blues can make that carry in 90% of course conditions, which I would propose they can, then I think 14 is nothing short of a great golf hole and reasonable in its current form. Perhaps they could be more mindful of the wind forecast in course set up, but that's all I can find fault in.

[Pete Lavallee]

I distinctly remember being told that several years ago in an SCGA Qualifying Event the tee on 14 was purposely put at the front of the blue pad because there was one participant who could not make the carry from the blue plate. Sure enough that player won the Qualifier! Indeed there is no way around making the carry, short of instituting a drop area on the other side or from the white teeing area.

[Alex Miller]

I distinctly remember being told that several years ago in an SCGA Qualifying Event the tee on 14 was purposely put at the front of the blue pad because there was one participant who could not make the carry from the blue plate. Sure enough that player won the Qualifier! Indeed there is no way around making the carry, short of instituting a drop area on the other side or from the white teeing area.

Thanks Pete for reminding me as I forgot to mention... there is a drop area on the other side!

[Pete Lavallee]

Gib has a really good point as the player in question was good enough to beat all comers but wouldn't be able to make the carry from the blue plate. If the tees were there his only option would be to dump one in the hazard and proceed to the drop zone. Now if he can't make the carry from the tee he surely won't be able to reach the green from the drop zone so a bogey is the best score he could make with a one putt. Of course he could try to wedge it on to the white tee box and hope for a one putt par after reaching the green in three but having to execute that strategy is mind numbing.

[Alex Miller]

Let me preface and say that I have a great appreciation for this guy's game if he won the event, short hitter or not. It also says something about Rustic which I would have thought favors long hitters given the 5 par 5's and handful of long and driveable par 4's.


But again, if he's the one guy in the field who theoretically couldn't make the carry (but did from the front of the tee box) then I don't think it's a flaw of the course. He still would have at least tied had he not been able to make the carry! Not everybody has to be able to hit every shot every time, even single digit players.


The argument for an easier carry on that hole is akin to arguing for another tee further back because a few guys (and I've played with some) are able to cut the corner from the current black markers when downwind. I'm not buying it.

[Gib_Papazian]

Alex,

The tee was all the way back and the wind was strong enough that I made the fairway one time in three tries - and had to swing so hard I left a racing stripe in my lace panties.

Perhaps you're right, the game has passed me by and I ought to suck it up, buy a case of Geritol, get a whippy, over-length driver and play from the women's tees.

Rustic can be just like the PGA Tour - eliminate the art of shotmaking  - and relegate Fred Funk, Corey Pavin and their ilk to the scrap heap.

   

[Scott Weersing]

I remember when the tree on 14 was alive and a taller. You had to hit to the right of it.


I played Rustic back on Dec. 31 and the Santa Ana winds were blowing down the canyon. When that is taking place, you have to hit a hybrid because a 3 wood or driver could end up through the fairway on the other side.


Downwind, the green is hard to hold. Into the wind, the drive would be harder but the green more receptive. I have not played the hole with the wind coming up the canyon.

[Alex Miller]

Alex,

The tee was all the way back and the wind was strong enough that I made the fairway one time in three tries - and had to swing so hard I left a racing stripe in my lace panties.

Perhaps you're right, the game has passed me by and I ought to suck it up, buy a case of Geritol, get a whippy, over-length driver and play from the women's tees.

Rustic can be just like the PGA Tour - eliminate the art of shotmaking  - and relegate Fred Funk, Corey Pavin and their ilk to the scrap heap.

 

Well considering I'm not proposing any changes I'd say the odds of the green text being truer than the blue are pretty good. 

[Jordan Standefer]

I have not played the hole with the wind coming up the canyon.

That's interesting, Scott, as the wind coming up canyon is definitely the prevailing wind.  And that makes 14, 16, and 18 a very stout finishing stretch.

I think I would have like #7 more before the flood.  It seems as though the old hole gave you more of a choice on the tee shot as to whether you should drive it over the wash creating a better angle into the green.  As the hole is now, the play is to layup because the fairway across the wash is just too small of a target to justify hitting driver.

[Gib_Papazian]

Okay Alex, I'll make you a wager, since pufferfish are full of air.

We'll play Rustic Canyon, dinner at wherever Tommy Naccarato chooses - loser pays for all three. No cheapo vino, only full blast Zins or Cabs.

Terms: I play the white tees on #14, you play the white tees on any other hole of your choosing. Straight up, stroke play, Tommy is the ref.

After I smoke your ass, I'll even give you a chance to redeem yourself for another go-round at Santa Anita. Since you hit 7-iron into #18 and I hit 5-wood, it ought to be easy pickens against an aging Armenian , , , , , ,     

[Tommy Naccarato]

Count me in!


I too was there on Sunday, and Jeff Hicks and Staff should be decorated!  Craig Price deserves a medal as well!



Scott Weersing, You probably already know this, but winter prevailing wind us almost Santa Ana like from the North, with the canyon bring used for a cannon affect! LOL!


Spring/Summer prevailing wind is usually coming in right into your face on #4.  I still can't believe how many hut in the air to fly the pin in those hole regardless.  It's a knockdown/punch into that hole.  I yearn for the days of when you could entertainingly watch each other's shots roll around on that green.  If I had my way, that fronting bunker would be gone.


On hole #7, the green just doesn't fit the rest of the course, The old green, which was completely wiped out might have been the best strategy Hanse Golf Design has ever produced to date.

[Ronald Montesano]

I have my answer, and this is no 4-1 Yoke. I would build another 9 holes farther up the canyon. Or 18. Or more. Exactly like the ones they have. Because it is amazing and the best golf that anyone ever had. No Yoke.

[Alex Miller]

Okay Alex, I'll make you a wager, since pufferfish are full of air.

We'll play Rustic Canyon, dinner at wherever Tommy Naccarato chooses - loser pays for all three. No cheapo vino, only full blast Zins or Cabs.

Terms: I play the white tees on #14, you play the white tees on any other hole of your choosing. Straight up, stroke play, Tommy is the ref.

After I smoke your ass, I'll even give you a chance to redeem yourself for another go-round at Santa Anita. Since you hit 7-iron into #18 and I hit 5-wood, it ought to be easy pickens against an aging Armenian , , , , , ,   

If provoking you into this match is what it takes for a round with you when you're in town then I wholeheartedly accept!