[Mark_Rowlinson]

Obviously streams and burns were a feature of some of the the oldest golf courses - The Old Course, Prestwick and Carnoustie come to mind.  But when were golfers first made to make a substantial carry over a body of water, a pond, lake or even an arm of the sea?  Was it perhaps the 14th at The National Golf Links?  As this is a serious debating forum, you might like to consider optional (strategic) carries and forced carries as separate entities.

[Bob_Huntley]

Mark,

What about the snake filled hazards at Royal Cacutta G.C.?

[A_Clay_Man]

How about the earliest non-naturally constructed water hazard? Was it Pre Lido?

[Bill Weber]

Where does Machrihanish fit into the time line? The first certainly fits the bill.

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark

Was the first man-made water hazard the pond Colt built on the fifth at Sunningdale ?
I have recollections of being told it was.

Bob

Royal Calcutta is the oldest golf course in the world outside of the U.K.
That would make the 'tanks' there pretty old water hazards but Im not sure they were man-made - although it would be a reasonable assumption.
I have only ever played there when they were empty but I'm sure it's a much more difficult course when they are full.

[BCrosby]

The original, mysterious and NLE "chasm" hole at the Biarritz Golf Club? Didn't you have to play over a bit of the Bay of Biscay?

Prior to the early 20's, it's remarkable how few forced carries there were over water any wider than a stream.

When was the Cape (5th) at Mid-O built?

Bob

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Bob, Mike,

I think Royal Calcutta is the oldest golf CLUB outside the British Isles, but the present COURSE dates from 'towards the end of the century' (ie 19th).  If World Atlas of Golf is to be believed, 'The women wash their saris and their children in the ponds formed where fill was taken to build tees and greens....'

I, too, am under the impression that the pond at the 5th at Sunningdale is the world's oldest man-made water hazard (ie constructed as a design feature rather than utilising a man-made water hazard already in existence).  But when did Colt revise Sunningdale? If it were a Park innovation I could understand it being the oldest, but by the time Colt revised the course?  I wonder?  Send for Paul Turner!

Bill,

Machrihanish was formed as a proper club in 1876, though golf had been played there as early as 1871.  Charles Hunter (Professional at Prestwick) laid out the 1876 course (rearranging the 10 exisiting holes and adding two more), Tom Morris visited in 1879 to lay out new holes on the west side of the river (land now occupied by the 1st, 2nd, 17th and 18th), J.H. Taylor made further amendments in 1914 and Sir Guy Campbell remodelled the course after the Second World War, some of the original course having been lost to the military.  What I don't know is whether the present 1st dates from 1879 or whether it was a later accretion.  Perhaps one of you knows?

Bob,  

I know infuriatingly little about Biarritz - do educate me.

I think Machrihanish is winning at the moment, but the books aren't closed.  If its 1st dates from Morris is it also one of the earliest Cape holes?

[ForkaB]

Mark

If you're going to count the 1st at Machrihanish, how about the 2nd at North Berwick?  Very similar hole, but in a reverse image, and probably just as old if not older.

[paul cowley]

richard....i seem to remember a hole similar to north berwicks at crail g soc .....if so ,i believe crail predates NB [1700 something to early 1800].......but this is all from memory

maybe you can confirm........

[danielfaleman]

2nd at North Berwick

[ForkaB]

Paul

I think you're right about some sort of "Cape" hole at Crail, but not sure about the dating of the hole.  I'm sure the course has been remodeled since 1700!.

In any case, I really do not think that any of these "cut off as much beach as you dare" sort of holes really qualify as "water hazards."  The Sunningdale example seems most likely in terms of using standing water as an architectural feature (at least in the UK), but I am no expert in this area.

[Paul_Turner]

Colt and his pond?

Off the top of my head, I'm not sure of an exact date, need to check some early pics.  All those major redesigns of Sunn Old were sometime between 1901 and 1910, I reckon somewhere in the middle.

[Gerry B]

B Crosby:

Mid Ocean was built in the mid 1920's (1923 I think)-the carry over Mangrove Lake is one of the best tee shots in golf as is the hole.

Rumour has it - Babe Ruth hit a small bucket into the lake and then walked off the course - probably to the bar in the clubhouse

 

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Crail

It seems to have moved from an original site at Sauchope to Balcomie in 1895 when Tom Morris layed out 9 holes.  He returned four years later to lay out the other 9 holes.  

North Berwick

Founded in 1832.  Do we know from when the course as we know it today dates?  The 2nd is, as you say. a mirror image of the 1st at Macrihanish, but I suppose the forced carry over the water on the 1st was rather more formidable in eighteen-something.  

We're narrowing it down!

[Dennis_Harwood]

According to Kenneth Chapman, in his historical work "Rules of the Green", the first mention in the Rules of Golf to a SPECIFIC body of water was contained in the 1858 Royal Perth Golfing Society--

"Should a ball be driven into the Tay and seen by both parties it is considered not lost; if not seen by both parties it is lost and must be played as according to Rule X(Lost Ball). When not lost the ball must be played a club length in front of the River, the player or party losing a stroke."

(Perhaps the first description of what we now require as Reasonable Evidence for a ball lost in a water hazard)--

Of course lone before that reference. the 1744  Leith Code, article 5, took into account the "watery filth", an apt description of the contents of the burns that crossed the original seaside links, including St Andrews(the burns were the man constructed sewer and drainage lines to the sea in those days before underground pumbling)--

The unfortunate player hitting into such condition would never think of playing his ball, rather he was allowed to retrieve it and to then tee it behind the burn and give his adversary a stroke for his misfortune--

[A_Clay_Man]

Dennis- I suppose that's were the term 'hitting it into the s**t', came from?

But, did you transpose the "adversary" in your last line?

Also, Interesting it was only one club length, since now it's two.

[Dennis_Harwood]

Adam-- I expect there is some truth in that.

Are you refering to "allowing your opponent a stroke"?

That is the language in all the early Rules before stroke or medal play commenced(in the late 1800s).  The game was all match play before then, and scored much like croquet--scores on holes were not computed and honors were not used--Opponents played alternate shots, first in wins unless opponent matches last shot, then hole is tied(halved).

For a penalty the opponent was a allow a "free stroke" (rather than adding a penalty shot to your score, which did not become a concept in the game until stroke play arrived)

[BCrosby]

Dennis -

Not sure I understand. Do you mean to say that in early match play my oppponent and I played the same ball? With the other party afforded the opportunity to match the last, holed shot on each hole?

Bob

[BCrosby]

Mark -

The only thing I know about the "chasm" hole at Biarritz Golf Club was as noted above. It's existence and form remain mysterious. At least to me. The only reference I know of to the hole was by MacDonald. Others (George Bahto et al.) may know more. But if it existed in the form I saw in a drawing of it, it would have been a very early forced carry over water. By early, I'm thinking 1900 or so.

I don't think of the 2nd at N. Berwick as a forced carry, which was what I thought you were looking for.

Bob

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Bob,

Thanks for the Biarritz info.  I didn't define a water hazard or forced carry very well in my original post - just waited to see what might emerge.  

So from what has been written earlier I deduce that streams or burns were deemed reasonable hazards for 19th Century golfers but that the forced carry over something more substantial in the way of water seems to have emerged more less at the same time as the Haskell ball.

[BCrosby]

Mark -

Your hypothesis makes sense. Any writings from the era confirming it?

My guess is that the Haskell ball ushered in a revolution in architectural thinking on many fronts. Doesn't the introduction of the new ball correspond roughly with the rise of the work of Colt/Fowler/Low?    

Bob

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Bob,

I have no written proof - it was just something that came into my head as the direction of these posts became clearer.

I imagine that it was the coming of the Haskell Ball that prompted Colt to remodel Sunningdale.  That said, he'd already laid out Rye in 1894, before the said ball.  

I'm no historian but there will be GCAers who are.

Mark.

[Mark_Fine]

Does someone recall when the "floater" was introduced?

[Steve Wilson]

I am sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression the guttie was a floater.   Not because it was designed as such, simply due to the specific gravity of the material.  And in Macdonald's book he has a section that lists 22 brands of ball being produced in 1911 and 12 of the those brands are floaters (including the St. Mungo Water Core).  I think it's fair to conclude that the floating golf ball was around before 1911.

[John_McMillan]

The Red Sea provided more than Pharoah and his army could handle.  It turned out to be a great risk/reward option for Moses.

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