[Mark_Rowlinson]

The excellent post on The Addington prompted me to try to compile a personal list of my top 30 courses within a 30-mile radius of central London.  It makes me wonder how many other cities have so many top-flight courses within such proximity.  For what it’s worth here it is:

1.   Walton Heath Old
2.   The Addington
3.   Sunningdale Old
4.   Woking  
5.   St George’s Hill
6.   Swinley Forest
7.   Worplesdon
8.   The Berkshire Red
9.   Sunningdale New
10.   Moor Park High Course
11.   New Zealand
12.   Wentworth West
13.   The Berkshire Blue
14.   Wentworth East
15.   Coombe Hill
16.   Walton Heath New
17.   Burnham Beeches
18.   The Wisley
19.   Beaconsfield
20.   West Hill
21.   Stoke Park
22.   Denham
23.   West Byfleet
24.   The Buckinghamshire
25.   Royal Mid-Surrey
26.   Tandridge
27.   Orsett
28.   Royal Blackheath
29.   Mill Hill
30.   South Herts

If nothing else it provides you with a bit of target practice.  I know you’ll not be too shy to blow the list to smithereens.

[Jeff_Mingay]

That's a pretty impressive list, Mark.

Metropolitan New York immediately popped into my head as a potential rival. Any one out there who'd like to take a crack at a top 30 list for New York for the sake of comparison.

I nominate Mike Sweeney  

[Paul_Turner]

Mark

I haven't played as many as you, but my order is.

1 Swinley
2 St George's Hill (I'm guessing-not played it but seen lots of photos)
3 Sunningdale Old
4 Sunningdale New
5 Addington
6 Walton Heath Old
7 Berkshire Red
9 Berkshire Blue
10 Woking
11 Moor Park High
12 Beaconsfield
13 Moor Park West
14 Stoke Poges
15 Denham
16 Burham Beeches

Interesting that you have WH and Addington at number 1 and 2.  VERY different courses!

Woking is great but I don't think it's in the class of the big gun courses.  I think I tend to favour the courses that have a large scale like Sunningdale.  

I suspect I'd have the Wentworth's around 10-12, but I never could afford the green fees!

I like the look of Tandridge and Royal Blackheath.   I quite like Calcot Park, but is it inside 30 miles.  Romford looks really interesting with its massive amount of bunkers.  From pics, I'm pretty sure I'd include Camberley Heath although I know it isn't a fave of yours.

How about Northwood and Hadley Wood (Mackenzie)?

What's the deal with Mill Hill?  I know it's an Aber+Colt course.

A long time ago we debated which cities had the strongest golf in terms of depth.  I believe it came down to London and New York.

[Paul_Turner]

Hope Ran sees this thread.  I think he'd have The Addington way up there; probably above Sunningdale.  But using his "match play" test, I can't see any way that Addington wins.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Paul,  Camberley is outside my arbitrarily set radius (I first tried 25 miles but found too many big names missing!).  I haven't played Hadley Wood or Northwood and I'd be happy to trade South Herts or Mill Hill for either.  There's quite a bias to the south-west so a few more courses to the north and east would do no harm and I don't know Romford.  Of the Colt courses I just have a slight preference for St George's Hill over Swinley because I think the first 3 holes at Swinley are fairly prosaic, the 5th, too.  In fairness, Swinley's 12th is the best hole on either course.  

If I had compiled that list 10 or 15 years ago I should have placed Stoke Poges (as it then was) much higher, but I demoted it (its many good holes notwithstanding) because I hate the vulgarity of its pseudo-country club/hotel style.  I've only played Moor Park West once and don't remember it particularly.  What I do remember about it is that when I was a student, playing in a match between Royal Academy of Music and Royal College of Music Professors (which I was not), I played with one Keith Shelley as my partner in a successful match.  He gave me a lift to a tube station afterwards and I asked him what his connection with the Royal Academy was.  'Nothing.' was his reply, 'except that I'm Dame Janet Baker's husband.'  Also playing as a pseudo-professor that day was the young Tom Allen, then wondering whether to become a professional golfer (he was that good) or professional singer.  Now Sir Thomas, he's done well enough at La Scala, the Met, Covent Garden etc - in musical terms the equivalent of a multi-major winner in golf.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Paul and Jeff,

I made the list to provoke your reactions, but I thought very hard about the final order.  My order is not just about architecture but about a combination of architecture,  playability yet challenge to a man of my modest capabilities, environment, ecology, atmosphere and that feeling of rightness that comes when a course measures up to your aspirations and possibly exceeds it.  As I say, the list is there to provoke discussion.

Mark.

[Gerry B]

Have not played many of them but rank Sunningdale Old # 1 and Walton Heath Old # 2 of the ones I have played
For historical signifigance- Stoke Poges gets honorable mention as Goldfinger was filmed there.
Have to play Addington based upon the photos.

Most overrated -Wentworth -tied for most overrated course in the world (based upon the rankings)with Kingston Heath -In my humble opinion.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Jeff

It might be worth noting that the 30 London courses can all be played by uninvited visitors.  I think the equivalent New York number is 1, maybe 2 with Montawk.

That's a pretty impressive list, Mark.

Metropolitan New York immediately popped into my head as a potential rival. Any one out there who'd like to take a crack at a top 30 list for New York for the sake of comparison.

I nominate Mike Sweeney  

[Pete Lavallee]

I'm very intertested that Mark rated Woking so high; better than Swinley Forest, don't know I haven't played there. Woking is next up on our photo tour; if greenside interest is the hallmark of a great course, Woking must be given very strong consideration. A tight, strong routing that has all the shots through the heath; it's the tinkering that buffs it out in my mind. Frankly I can't remember any significant features of any of the greens at The Addignton; great shot values though.

[Marc Haring]

Another excellent list Mark.

I have managed to play all but 4 over god knows how many years and all of the first 22. Can’t disagree too much. I certainly concur with your placement of Woking and Pete you will love it. It is perhaps in one of the largest time warps in England, even greater than Swinley's. The Addington, I am not quite so sure should be that high. It can get horribly penal with those slopes.

You are right about Stoke Park Mark, but I have to point out that if you do go back those 15 years, it was in a hopeless state. The Capability Brown gardens had disappeared under a carpet of laurel, the clubhouse was falling down and every view had become choked with neglected woodland. That club, despite it’s traditional charm, was lost by successive committees of little vision.

I know you are a true traditionalist at heart Mark but some of the newer ones left out are of interest. Foxhills? I quite like them, especially the Bernard Hunt course. They seem to have taken on an air of quiet quality over the years. A bit like Wentworth of a couple of decades ago.

Millride, The Grove, Queenwood? I won’t press you on The Edinburgh Mark; still think it should be there though.

Below, Foxhills.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Lloyd,  That's a good point that you make.  The Wisley is members only but the rest you can play if you've a deep enough pocket.  

Marc, I've never played Foxhills.  Maybe it should be there.  I'm probably less against new courses than some on GCA.  Wisley and Buckinghamshire are there in the list.  I suspect Mill Ride may be just outside the limit, but Mill Hill and South Herts are certainly not guaranteed fixtures.  Sadly, I have no knowledge of Queenwood.  They have steadfastly refused to answer any enquiries when I have been wearing my golf guide writer's hat.  

There's a course I completely forgot that ought to be in there, The RAC Club at Epsom.  There are two courses, both by Fowler, and I was lucky enough to play both in the one day back in 1971 or 2, but I don't remember much detail.  Unfortunately it's a very private club, although it does accept a few well-connected visiting parties.  They refused to allow me to enter them in the Times Guide!

[ForkaB]

Mark

A few of us will be playing RAC Epsom (both courses) the day before GCA-Painswick (May 11).  Any other Painswickeans who would be interested, I might be able to get more players on.  Let me know, and I'll check out availability.

Rich(ard)

PS--apropos to your and Lloyd's comments, one must remember too that if you limit NYC to a 30-mile radius too, you eliminate all the Hamptons courses (plus Pine Valley and a few others in NJ, I'm sure).

[Mike_Sweeney]

I may be banned from the board for saying this, but the only course I have played in London was The London Golf Club - International by Nicklaus. To be fair, it was 5 years ago, and I was taken by a local who probably was trying to please the American guest. With all of the acquired knowledge from GCA, I would go elsewhere on the next trip, but is London Golf Club not worth a mention? It was a lovely day on a nice course. If it does not make this list, my guess is that London blows away New York on a 30 mile range test of golf courses.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Mike,

I've played both London Club courses as a guest of the club and I wrote pleasant enough things about them for a book, but I found them bland.  Sure, they were big courses of muscular proportions but they didn't have the character of, say, Chart Hills which would have got in my list had it been nearer to London.  Another Nicklaus course which qualifies geographically is his son's (Jack II) Hanbury Manor at Ware in Hertfordshire which featured on the European Tour for a year or two.  There are some fine holes and one or two good greens complexes but ( a few ponds apart) the back nine does not enjoy such good natural ground as the front nine.  The Palmerston Course at Brocket Hall near Welwyn is probably the equal of either, possibly better than both.  Perhaps someone who has played all three might care to adjudicate.  West Herts (Morris/Mackenzie) at Cassiobury Park in Watford is another I perhaps ought to have thrown into the mix but forgot.

I think what is emerging is that we're pretty settled on the top 20 or so and that there are at least 20 candidates for the next 10 places.  

[Jeff_Mingay]

Lloyd,

As Mark's already pointed out above, that's a very good, and extremely notable point about all of the London area courses being open to uninvited guests.

[Paul_Turner]

Mark

In some ways I reckon that Moor Park West has holes with more character than the High.  I posted some pics of the course along with Tricky Ricky (used to be Moor Park East).  The High does have that excellent and tough(!) stretch from 8-14 with the 12th which must be right up there with the best for long tough par 3s.  Not quite as good as Addington's 13th but not far off, I reckon.

Still curious about Mill Hill.  What's the general terrain like?

Pete

There is actually quite a lot of complexity on the greens at Addington.  And most interesting to me was the fact that the 12th has the most contoured green (small too) and it's just about the toughest hole on the course (15th is quite heavily contoured too).  The club needs to cut the trees back on the 12th so the ball can bank in from the left and use the green contours.

[Darren_Kilfara]

Here's another man's ranking of London-area golf courses that I've played:

1. Swinley Forest
2. Walton Heath - Old
3. The Addington
4. St. George's Hill
5. Sunningdale - Old
6. Sunningdale - New
7. Berkshire - Red
8. New Zealand
9. West Hill
10. Moor Park

Obviously there are a few holes for me to fill in this list one of these days - I don't think I've left anything noteworthy out from those I've played (I haven't counted a few obviously lesser courses that I've played). The next four I'd like to play, in no particular order, are West Sussex, Woking, Walton Heath (New) and Royal Ashdown Forest, although now that I no longer live in London, it might be a while. Anyway, I'm a huge fan of The Addington...it really belongs in the top tier of the discussion, any way you slice it, for it really does has everything a GolfClubAtlas devotee could want in a golf course.

By the way, Melbourne may not quite match London in terms of quantity, but in terms of quality it's right up there - really, you could easily spend a great golfing month or two just playing the Sand Belt courses...and if there's any region in the world which is similar in golfing feel to the Heathlands, it's got to be the Sand Belt. (It's a better comparison than London vs. New York, anyway, in my estimation.)

Cheers,
Darren

[Marc Haring]

Just been chatting to Lee Penrose an environmental officer who works for the Sports Turf Research Institute. We were discussing the London Heathland courses and he enlightened me on how many are now following the excellent lead of Hankley Common and Walton Heath and started to cut down the mass of pine and birch that has been so invasive over the years.
Brian Turner the Superintendent at Sunningdale has started this process especially on the new course and even The Berkshire are seriously thinking of opening their courses back up.
I hope they do it. Should be interesting.

[Paul_Turner]

Marc

Slough certainly is Crap, full of thugs and the ubiquitous "Watchoo looking at, you...".  Makes it in at #42.  I'm sure you know the infamous quote from Poet Laureate John Betjeman "Come, friendly bombs and fall on Slough/It isn't fit for humans now".

[ForkaB]

Paul

Are you sure Betjeman was right?  I always thought that "Slough" rhymed with "rough"......

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Paul,

I've sent you a scan of the Mill Hill brochure and score card via E-mail.  It's sandwiched between the A1 (by this stage a full dual carriageway) and the M1 on gently rolling land with more than a touch of heathland about the feel.  Trees line most fairways but I remember them as being more to keep the traffic screened off than as inhibiting strategic factors.  I played there several times in the 70s with a society and the course was invariably in good condition, with fast-running fairways and firm greens and in those days it seemed to be one of the best-value green fees in the London suburbs.  I can't recall what the green complexes and bunkers were like, but I suspect that there will have been much change through the years with widening of the A1 and construction of the motorway.  The clubhouse is linked to the course by a tunnel under the A1.  If you plan to visit you have to contrive to be on the southbound carriageway of the A1 or you can't drive in to the clubhouse.

I agree totally about Slough.  Last autumn I was soloist in a concert there which I think was the very worst professional concert it's been my misfortune to be involved in!  Lamentable and utterly incompetent conductor!  

Hankley Common is a must-visit for anyone who wants to see how a heathland course should be maintained.  It's outside the 30-mile radius.  It's part of a big nature conservancy area.

Darren - glad you made it to New Zealand.  I think it's very engaging and full of character.  What did you think of it?  Melbourne had certainly entered my mind as a city with more than its faor share of top-ranked courses.  But I've never played golf there, so I cannot comment, only dream.

Paul,

I'm interested in what you say about the two Moor Park courses.  I don't remember enough about the West to make a sensible comment, but the High has remained firmly in the mind for many years.  (I walked some of it again as a reminder when I did the Globetrotter Guide).  In truth, there are few courses which have a collection of short holes to equal those at The Addington.  I like the 1st with its slightly forbidding drive across the road, uphill past bunkers, bearing right to a narrow green with bunkers low to the right and a big, long one to the left.  The 2nd is about position from the tee with a left-to-right angled green and tight bunkering, and bunkers completely surround the short 3rd.  heading out to the north end of the course, the 4th is very exposed to the wind and the upslope to the green puts it on the very limit of my strength to get on in two.  For a good golfer I'm sure the 5th is dull (drive short of wide cross-bunker short of green and simple pitch) but a bunker of that kind intimidates golfers of my feeble character!  The 6th is fairly mundane, while the fairway bunkering on the 7th is entirely in my range (too short for today's tigers).  8 is a very serious hole, 467 yards from the back.  The slopes on the fairway as it curls past the pond make it a very uncertain bogey 5 for me, though a low-handicapper's strength should take most of those slopes out of play.  The 9th is a fairly disappointing par 5.  

We're now at the opposite end of the site from the 4th green and the 10th is a mischievous short par 3 with bunkers at the front and serious drop-offs to either side and through the back.  11 is all slopes, downhill off the tee to a narrow gap between trees on the left and a ditch on the right, then steeply up over a line of cross-bunkers to an egg-timer green.  The bunkering at the meorable 12th has been changed with no bunker on the direct route (I'll E-mail you a couple of photos).  I thought the 13th was a corker of a par 5 with a wicked bunker on the right exactly where an average drive will finish when pushed right by the sloping fairway.  The green-front bunkering is thought-provoking.  I found the 14th very tough with a big slope up to the green (even assuming I cleared the stream with my second) which is very wide but only 17 yards deep.  The 15th continues to stretch a golfer of my limited ability, requiring two very full shots yet with the slope magnifying the effect of the gentle right-hand dog-leg.  Perhaps the par 5s (the 13th excepted) are not the most engaging feature of the course, the 16th fairly bland.  When I played a mtch here back in the 70s I was 5 down with 5 to play.  A birdie on 17 brought it back to 1 down and a chip in from the front right bunker at the 18th squared the match, so I like these last five holes!  I realise that you can't get a big gallery round the 18th, perched on the side of a hill by the road, but it is a jolly good finisher.

Enough essay writing!

Mark.

[TEPaul]

Jeff Mingay said;

"Metropolitan New York immediately popped into my head as a potential rival. Any one out there who'd like to take a crack at a top 30 list for New York for the sake of comparison."

Jeff:

Actually the city limits of NYC is farther out, at least on Long Island than most realize but nevertheless within a 30 mile radius of that behemoth city you have to realize that its different and vastly so than London appears to be.

The big difference is that with some of the great courses that were in near proximity to that city are NLE. NYC obviously had a habit of "eating it's young!" And it must have consider the most delicious little young morsel to be one Devereaux Emmet!

[Lloyd_Cole]

Jeff
Thanks.. I moved to NYC in 1988 thinking I might join a club nearby..haha!! If it wasn't for my pal in golf retail and the odd aquaintance who would invite me out I could easily have given up the game there.
6 hours to play a mediocre public track - you've really got to love the game...

Lloyd,

As Mark's already pointed out above, that's a very good, and extremely notable point about all of the London area courses being open to uninvited guests.

[Ben Allen]

Thank the lord someone (albeit an Englishman) mentioned Hankley Common. It might well be pushing the 30 mile radius from the City but as far as heathland courses go, it is very hard to beat. I played it last year (a day before I played Wentworth's West Course) and Hankley was tops for me. The greens are immaculate and if you are hoping for vistas on a golf course, the 4th at Hankley is unreal. It's just a sea of purple when the heather is in bloom. The 7th is a fine par 3 and the 18th is a tremendous finishing hole. Well worth a visit. I suppose if Hankley were to sneak in, then Hindhead would also have to figure too as they are close neighbours.

For pure ambience though, Woking must top the bill with its wondrous clubhouse. It's like stepping back in time to another world. Worplesdon is also very underrated.

If you're looking for the real cream of the crop though, Walton Heath is sensational. Two fantastic courses, great clubhouse and a lovely mini-museum devoted to the courses' architect, James Braid.

[Darren_Kilfara]

Rich, "Slough" definitely rhymes with "wow", not "rough". Don't ask me how I know, but I do know that for sure.

Mark, it's been a while since I played NZ, but I recall enjoying it for what it was - one of what seems to be infinitely many parkland courses in England which rates about a 5 on the Doak scale. It has charm but no particular length or difficulty (how many Doak 5 courses are there in England which are about 6,100-6,200 yards from the tips?), and for the most part it maintained a quite uniform level of rather-good-but-not-otherworldly architecture. Does that click with your knowledge/opinion of the course?

By the by, I now remember that I've also played Reigate Heath, undoubtedly the best nine-hole course I've ever played (although that's not saying too much in and of itself) and which I'd probably rate between #7 and #8 on my list. And I've walked quite a few holes at Liphook, which looked very enjoyable/intriguing. So many courses, so little time...

Cheers,
Darren

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