[TEPaul]

Crag Disher mentioned on another thread that having analyzed literally hundreds of old aerials he's noticed generally most of the pre-depression courses look almost completely unchanged until the 1950s and 1960s.

My general sense from old aerials is most of these courses appear the same until the 50s and 60s when you can see full course tree planting beginning to mature and a definite fairway narrowing. Starting in the 1950s and 1960s the holes of most of the old courses begin to appear noticeably skinner in the old aerials. I've always felt much of the fairway narrowing in that post WW2 era was the result of the onset of single row fairway irrigation that generally had a radius throw of about 15-20 yards and hence the reason most American fairways became uniformly about 35 yards wide despite differing widths for strategic or whatever reason originally.

It seems clear in WW1 most of the existing courses in America went into moth-balls during America's participation in that war as it was considered unpatriotic to play golf in WW1 and a number of fairways actually had victory gardens planted on them.

My question is what generally happened to American courses in WW2? Was it also considered unpatriotic in that war to play golf again causing most American courses to go into moth-balls? If that was generally true it might be a good reason why so many of those courses were altered in one way or another coming out WW2 moth-balls in the late 1940s and into the 1950s and 1960s.

My own course went through a number of changes in that era but unlike Craig's observation my course also went through three cycles of hole redesigns in the 1930s (five hole redesigns in all in the 1930s). Lucky for us, though, the redesigner was Perry Maxwell. The holes he redid are some of the best we have today.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Tom,

Just a theory, but it appears that the country headed into prosperity after WWII. When people have money in their pocket, they tend to spend it. Thus, there was lots of building in cities and suburbs. New courses were built and old courses were upgraded to compete with the new courses.

My guess is that old courses were viewed as "stark" sitting on farmland, and with houses being built closer and closer, trees were plantedfor privacy and "lushness" and courses were "upgraded".

On the Gib article thread, I was defending RTJ, as I believe that he was responding to the market and changes to the market. Leisure activities in general and specifically golf were growing after the war, and RTJ responded with 'hard par, easy bogey" to ease the growing golf population into the game. However, I can't defend his removal of the ground game as that eliminates options for the new player.

[TEPaul]

MikeS:

Of course the things Robert Trent Jones did was responding to post WW2 prosperity. Everybody was. That's probably the way we should look at him today and what he did then and later. The only minor blip on the radar screen of decades of ensuing boom was the Korean War but that seems like a minor little hiatus now.

For any of us to assume at this time that it was primrily RTJ who single-handedly changed the direction of golf and architecture wouldn't be accurate, in my opinion. Certainly he took advantage cleverly of a whole bunch of concurrent influences and he surely was a great salesman and self-promoter but there were all kinds of new things going on post WW2.

Just the extent of more construction technology and earth-moving capability probably developed in the war effort with massive logistical planning and military construction was a theretofore major development. Irrigation improvement was massive, golf equipment technology was improving rapidly and really altering the way the game was played and looked upon.

And there was another possibly major influence that frankly went on with all the allied countries following WW2 that we may not be so aware of the impact today. Those countries and their populaces returning from war and getting back to the family way wanted CHANGE and they wanted it BIGTIME! Why? They say because they all--entire countries just wanted to FORGET the pain and suffering they'd been through for perhaps fifteen years!

A perfect example of how much some of these countries wanted to forget despite it all is the example of Winston Chruchill. The Roaring Lion had almost single handedly brought England inspirationally through a potential disaster, maybe even annihilation, and what did England do? They threw him out of office! Was he unpopular? No, they just wanted to forget what they'd just come through and he represented that in spades (of course they voted him back in again in the 1950s!)

The atmosphere and desire for change was everywhere and RTJ was there and he jumped into that atmosphere and all its concurrent influences with both feet!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You have to remember that the country was still reeling from the effects of the Depression, when the winds of war swept the country and WAR finally broke out on 12-07-41.

Those events were financially debilitating to the country and to golf courses.

As Jim Kennedy said, only after WWII did prosperity and the ability to focus on leisure activities occur.

His line of reasoning post WWII is reasonable.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I realize that and that's why I said app 15 years of pain and suffering (ie about 11 years of general economic depresssion followed by about 4 years of a world war!).

You're beginning to get a bit like my grandfather who five minutes after somebody told him something he'd practically repeat it verbatim as if he just thought of it.

My first recollection of him was just after WW2. He lived on a huge place outside Philadelphia and for some reason he loved the military and the brass. My grandmother had bought up a bunch of houses surrounding their place and my first memories of my grandfather (who could definitely get into a snort or two or a baker's dozen) was these groaning dinners where he had a bunch of admirals generally (two of them lived in the houses on their place).

At dinner those admirals would say something interesting and then about five minutes later my grandfather would repeat it verbatim like he just thought of it as these admirals would look at each other with an expression like---where is this guy coming from?

Anyway that's what your beginning to sound like. The best thing for you to do is just acknowledge that most everything you know about architecture you learned from me!

[Mike_Sweeney]

Tom,

I think we are also skipping over the other movement where clubs sold their old property after the War to move further out. The best example that you and I know is Overbrook who sold their property on City Line Avenue in Philadelphia to Lankenau Hospital and then built the new course at the new site in the early 1950's. My guess is that the membership took full advantage of the economy and when they picked the Bryn Mawr site, my guess is that the focus was more on the Estate House, soon to be the Overbrook Club House. My guess is the membership was very proud of that site when it was bought, and my guess is that the original course probably was more to the liking of the taste here at GCA, because the one that they built in 1953.......

[TEPaul]

MikeS:

Did you know that the estate (and enormous house--now clubhouse) that is now Overbrook was given to a Miss Geist by her father Clarence Geist (built the Boca Ratons and Seaview using Flynn) as a wedding present? Clarence Geist lived directly across the street in another enormous place that is now a Catholic girls school.

You're right, this website probably would've liked the former Overbrook golf course better--a Tillinghast, if I'm not mistaken!

J.B McGovern designed and built the present Overbrook golf course--it may have been the only course he actually did on his own. J.B had been Ross's man in Philadelphia, basically running his Wynnewood office!

Wayne and I once asked Connie Lagerman, Flynn's daughter if there was any architect Flynn didn't like. She thought about that and said other than Dick Wilson who worked for him for years and who he may have liked but was constantly a terrible pain in the ass to him, the only one she could think of was J.B. McGovern. I asked her if she knew why he said that and all she said was he thought he was a terrible architect!

But I can't really imagine why he'd say that as McGovern worked for Ross before Flynn died and hadn't yet done Overbrook. I guess McGovern did some contracting in the area on the side.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Your next to last post just snapped me out of a prescription drug induced coma.  I'm alert now.

You also have to remember, I have to repeat myself because your intitial reaction is to fail to see the light, to reject the truth, hence, I must, through repitition, convey the concepts and the truth to you.

Mike Sweeney,

You bring up a very good point.

However, as time went buy, these clubs that sold off their inner city property and purchased large tracts of suburban property for far less, eventually went through some difficult times and sold off a good deal of their perimeter property.
Many clubs are still doing this today, and this is one reason why elasticity has been lost, the buffer land is gone.

Finances at a given club have, and continue to have a great deal of influence over the architecture.

It's a fact of life that some may not want to come to grips with.

[TEPaul]

"You also have to remember, I have to repeat myself because your intitial reaction is to fail to see the light, to reject the truth, hence, I must, through repitition, convey the concepts and the truth to you."

Pat:

Perhaps, but what about the truth and the light of the things I came up with in the first place? Why are you repeating those things as if you just thought of them? From now on I'll look upon you as Patrick "A.J. D. Paul" Mucci---the "Great Repeater".    

[Mike_Sweeney]

Finances at a given club have, and continue to have a great deal of influence over the architecture.

It's a fact of life that some may not want to come to grips with.

Patrick,

I think you saw this from Neil yesterday, but this was a shocker to me, as I just think of Winged Foot as always having $.

It would be interesting to read the minutes of clubs that altered their courses in the 30's, 50's and 60's.

Pat,
  I have recently been reading the Winged Foot minutes from the 1930s.
   Survival is the theme. Other clubs are closing or desperate for members. Members are unable to pay their $200 (!) and are being given extensions. Staff is being regretfully reduced, and course conditioning is discussed with the goal of playability (not design principles.)
   In 1933 (I think, from memory) the club invested $7,500 (again, from memory) in maintennance equipment and labor. This is discussed as extraordinary, and justifiable. Numerous members testify that the club was the only one in the area to have playable grass all summer, and the membership committee reports new members joining for that reason.
   Regarding how long-lasting were the effects of the depression era and their contingent priorities, here is an interesting item. I recently read in the USGA Journal archives a letter written in 1955 from Oscar Carlson, the president of Siwanoy very near Winged Foot. He thanks the USGA for their very effective agronomic advice in 1954, and states

1954 was the first year summer rules were played at Siwanoy since 1939.

  Think about that. As late as 1954, at least, the priority is getting the grass to grow, and not design principles.

[A_Clay_Man]

TP - We can all speculate on the real reasons for the apparent "downfall" and certainly fiduciary responsibility is a major motivating factor in most decisions to change. That being said, I like to explore the lessons the game teaches us to try to decipher the "why".

Ego, after kicking deutchlands proverbial ass, and saving Europe and other areas, America had what is commonly known as a swelled head. Justifiably so, they had proven their metal to not only themselves but to the rest of the world.
One possible "reason" is that egos, had swelled to the point of where accomplishments, were a given. The toxicating understanding that "we" could do anything we put our minds and muscle to, had to become the projected attitude, especially from those with the wealth to live ultra-comfortably. And what happens in this game, when we get to the point where we think 'we are good'? I no my own experiences have taught me that that is not a place where good things happen

This arrogance transfered to gca and the egos of those in power to affect change. Albeit, in hindsight, poor changes. But it would apper that your example of the elderly gentleman who admitted,"they had no idea", supports the theory of arrogance and proceeding without doing the research.

I'm surprised Pat hasn't more constructive information, since he admitted that he and his Dad were integral to the high social & golf scene, back in the day.

So, in conclusion, indirectly, it's all Mucci's fault.

[SPDB]

TEPaul - I thought Ross designed the original Overbrook. Are you sure it was Tillie?

Overbrook came very close to buying Merion West for $1 and assumption of debt before WWII. More evidence of the desperation of EVERY club during this period.

[Paul_Turner]

Britain was in far worse financial condition than the US after WW2.  I've read many British club histories and the vast majority of clubs were not significantly altered due to the war.  Many of them were turned into vegetable plots but were quickly returned to their original design.  Thinking of the famous clubs, only 2 really stand out...Turnberry and Princes.  Both of which were practically destroyed by the army.  These were both substantially altered and redesigned;  but other than those?

So why was it so different?  Perhaps the answer is in the irrigation practices.  The clubs in the UK did not have fairway irrigation (most still don't-look at the pics Pete posted of Addington) because the climate is temperate.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Turner,

Climate and the culture of golf in the UK may have had a lot to do with it.

TEPaul,

The drugs have affected my memory, I don't recall you ever being right, could you refresh my memory, although, if you do, I'll probably forget again.

My wife says that I have the best selective memory in the universe.

A Clayman,

Don't make idiotic statements and generalize, I never made the expansive, all encompassing statements you attribute to my dad and I.

What club specific information do you want ?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom,
Golf courses were still being built during the war years. The IBM course, now known as Casperkill, was built in 1944 by RTJsr and didn't he do Cornell in 1942?

Another thing to consider is that clubs had very limited supplies of fertilizers and chemicals at their disposal during the war years, never mind the gas and oil needed to run and maintain their equipment. I think it stands to reason that the push to upgrade courses in the late '40s and early '50s was partly in response to the sub-standard conditions that clubs experienced during the war years.

....and don't forget Eisenhower.

[Bill Gayne]

Jim, great point on lack of availability of fertizer and chemicals for course upkeep. I would also venture a guess that the decline in interest in the game during the World Wars was largely caused by a limited availability of balls. The raw material, rubber, was diverted towards the war effort.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
The drugs have affected my memory, I don't recall you ever being right, could you refresh my memory, although, if you do, I'll probably forget again.
My wife says that I have the best selective memory in the universe.


Pat;

What's this sudden confessional all about? Whatever it is I'm glad to hear it and it's about time! Your wife is a saint!

So you want me to refresh your memory, do you? OK, I'll give it a shot just this one time;

PAT, this website, GOLFCLUBATLAS.com is about golf course architecture! Can you remember that? IT'S ABOUT GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE!!!!

PAT!! YO PAT! CAN YOU REMEMBER WHAT THAT IS???

[BCrosby]

My guess is that there were a lot fewer courses in 1955 than there were in 1930. New courses were built in that period, but many, many more closed. In little Athens GA, there were three courses in 1930; there was only one by 1936. I suspect that pattern repeated itself in many towns.

Of the clubs that survived, they either managed by taking on debt or found a sugar daddy. Maintenance was cut, bunkers filled, green and tee areas reduced.

You know it was bad if ANGC had to file for a receivership in 1934.

The big mystery to me is why, as clubs were re-capitalized about 1955, they rushed out and planted trees? It seemed to be every club's first response to having a little cash. Why? Why didn't they want to restore the bunkers they had filled-in, reset the greens surfaces they had reduced, etc.?

In short, why weren't they inclined to give back to their membership the things they had taken away in the hard times?

It's very curious. It's as if you couldn't afford to feed your family anything but hamburger for 25 years. Then, when you finally had some money, you kept feeding them hamburger and spent the new money on drapes.

What was going through their heads?

Bob

[Bob_Huntley]

Paul Turner,

Don't blame the Army for Turnberry, that was the Royal Air Force.

TEP,

Many people fail to realize that Churchill and his party were vaporized in 1945 for the simple reason that the absentee service vote was unanimous in its reasoning. Post 1918, the sacrifices made by the average Tommy were all but forgotten, but not by their sons and daughters. The General Strike of 1926 was put down by.....Winston Churchill. The class envy and warfare thus generated lasts in some way to this day.

Now back to golf courses. A good many of them stayed open during the period 1939-45, especially the ones in the Home Counties.

[TEPaul]

BobC:

There's something about that last post of yours that really got to me--not sure why--but to hazard a wild guess I just might say one reason is we today probably have very very little idea what was going through the collective mind of those in that era---and in a very real way that disturbs me or at least concerns me.

Basically we have nothing in our fortunate little national lives to compare to what was going on back in that time, in my opinion. I think it's beginning to make me chaff to hear those on here continually talking about the egos of some of those back then---that that was what made those in that day when the country and world was coming out of a deep depression and a world war alter things and do the things they did. I don't think so!

I was talking to Gil Hanse about the way clubs did things back then compared to today. He said he thought that back then everything about golf--including architecture was really laissez faire compared to today. Back then many of the guys who ran clubs would talk to the super---whoops, greenkeeper, for about a half hour at the beginning of the season, talk about what they hoped for and that was that. Today it's constant micro-managing! He probably knows a lot better than me--he sure as shootin' sees more of all this than I do.

But what you said about tree planting when there was no money around really did get to me. That's so curious and worth some serious pondering!

If I were to hazard a guess on that one I might say planting trees may have given those back in that day some subliminal feeling of permanency! Today we're into instant gratification but I don't think they were back then! But other more dire things might have been going on back then in their psyches. But I didn't experience that time and I guess I'm one of those modern instant gratificationists.

I like trees, although not so much on golf courses but I don't like the thought of planting them like my mother loved to do. Want to know why? The idea of planting a tree disturbs me, I think, and probably would have even if I thought about it 40 years ago because I think I just sensed I'd never see that little thing get near maturity by the time I died, even if as an old man--and that sort of bothered me! Think about it!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bob,
The low water mark for courses was 1946 with about 4.809 courses, down from a high about 5,800 in 1930. By 1957 the number was up again to about 5,500.

I think we all know, or have known, people who lived through the depression and the ones I've met never forgot it. Perhaps memberships believed that if they restored these higher maintenance items they might be taking them out again if another depression came along. Today you can still buy a lot of small trees for the cost of one bunker. Maybe it looked like a better bang for their bucks.

There were a lot of pro-tree articles written in the Green Section Record. This must have had some influence on memberships. A 1950 article on the utilitarian value of trees can be found here: http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1950s/1950/500909.pdf

"Memorial" trees are viewed in a more favorable light than "Memorial" bunkers. You or I might rather have our names on a deep, nasty pit but that probably doesn't sit well with the majority.
 

[A_Clay_Man]

Tom Paul, Sorry if I chaffed, but all this discussion and none of it seems to deal with the people. "Just the facts", type stuff.  about Tillie's romp in the 30's and now you posit the 50's and 60's era's? A. Rand wrote about the egoists in '35, by '60, they had to be getting out of control. Pat's post about his dad, could've shed some light, on my general point, but alas, it's been deleted.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam Clayman,

I'm not aware of any post that has been deleted.

What thread was it on ?

[TEPaul]

Adam:

Now may not be the time or this site may not be the place (perhaps offline would be better) but this era (eras actually) we're speak of in golf architecture is fascinating me more ever day. It's not just golf architecture either by any means--I basically mean understanding what I sometimes call the ethos of the era--generally. A.Rand was a significant thinker and writer but when we really get into some of the details of these things on here and these times we discuss we should probably be careful to choose our words very carefully, at least so as not to be misunderstood. When you refer to A. Rand mentioning the EGOISM of that era do you think it's the very same thing as perhaps the individual EGOTISM of some of those powerful characters who controlled what happened to golf clubs or do you think perhaps its more the human hubris and general human arrogance that may have prevaded an era PRECEDING all this when human-kind did not really understand the extent of their destructive potentia (generally considered to be that time before WW1)l. I''m not referring to golf architecture here exactly but I do believe that almost all things of any era are vaguely similar in general gist.

[Gerry B]

The worst golf course casualty due to a war was the demise of The Lido Club as a result of WW 2. If I could go back in time and play one course that is gone (as it was originally designed) this would be the one hands down based upon photos and historical archives  - I am sure George Bahto would agree.

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