Carnegie/Skibo

[Keith Durrant]

http://www.pgatour.com/story/7191935

How does it rank against Kingsbarns or Loch Lomond? How good is it?

[Dan Grossman]

Having played both, I would have to give the edge to Kingsbarns, but they are very different courses.

Kingsbarns was built to emulate a links course and has lots of manmade dunes, undulating greens, and built near the sea.  The routing at Kingsbarns is much better and it is easier to walk.

Skibo is not like that.  It reminds me more of an English links course where the course is much flatter and the main hazards are bunkers.  Personally, I think Skibo is harder than Kingsbarns and plays longer than the yardage.  If you look at the yardages below, there are a lot of strong par 4's.  There are a couple of short par 3s and short par 4s which skew the yardage a bit.  The finishing stretch between 13 - 18 is pretty brutal.  We played them into a gail and it was not easy.

If I had to split rounds between the two courses, I would probably play Kingsbarns 7 or 8 times out of 10.  Not that Skibo is a bad course, I would say that it is not as charming and fun, which are qualities I enjoy in Scottish golf.

For the record, I am also not a huge fan of Kingsbarns either and there is a long list of courses just in Fife that I would choose to play first or again before returning to Kingsbarns.  (TOC, New, Eden, Jubilee, Crail, Elie, Leven).

Scorecard at Skibo
Hole   Par   Yds
1   4   449
2   4   412
3   3   152
4   4   311
5   4   359
6   3   215
7   4   398
8   4   448
9   5   549
10   5   509
11   3   155
12   5   555
13   3   217
14   4   461
15   3   189
16   4   468
17   4   267
18   5   557
   71   6671

Here is a map of the course and hole by hole descriptions.

http://www.carnegieclubs.com/pages/golf/golf_hole_map.html

[Dan Grossman]

I didn't see your reference to Loch Lomond, although, again, it is difficult to compare Loch Lomond to ANYTHING else in Scotland.  Loch Lomond is a great golf course, but is certainly not a links course.  It is American target golf in Scotland.  If all three golf courses were in the US, Loch Lomond would be far and away my favorite.  But, in Scotland, it is tougher.  I would not return to play Loch Lomond when in Scotland, but it is not because of the  quality of the golf course, but because you don't need to fly across the Atlantic Ocean to play that course.

On terms of pure architecture, I would rank them:
1.  Loch Lomond
2.  Kingsbarns
3.  Skibo

In terms of what I like to play when in Scotland, Loch Lomond is at the bottom of the list...

If you have specific questions about the three courses, I will do my best to try to answer...

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Dan,

How on earth do you get to play at Loch Lomond?  My understanding is that it is members only, apart from a few guests at £300 or worse.  For that matter, how is it that so many of our US posters are able to talk about playing UK championship courses from the tips?  In the UK visitors normally play from the yellow (visitors') tees.  Even when I was taken round Beau Desert by the Secretary, he had to apply for permission from the club to allow us both to play from the white (medal) tees.  

There are many UK courses (probably the majority) where even the members may only play from the white tees in proper club competitions.  My own club allows visitors only to play from the yellow tees, members from the whites for most club competitions and (even members) only the blue championship tees for a very few specific competitions - not even for practice.  I should be delighted to introduce any GCA member to my club, but if you wanted to play from the championship tees I should need to seek the approval of the club committee well in advance, and from what I know of a great many other clubs in the UK the same applies.  How is it you all talk of playing UK courses from the tips?

[Dan Grossman]

Mark - I know a couple of members at Loch Lomond who were able to help arrange a round for us.

As far as playing from the tips, I have found that simply asking the pro or secretary is sufficient.  On our last trip to England / Scotland in August, we played Alwoodley, Birkdale, West Lancs, Lytham, Formby, Hillside, Cruden Bay, Peterhead, Fraserburgh, Lossiemouth, Boat of Garten, Dornoch, Brora, Tain, Golspie and Skibo.  The only two clubs that refused to let us play from the medal tees were Boat of Garten and Birkdale.  We didn't ask at Birkdale (it was so stuffy we figured what the answer would be) and Boat of Garten required a vote of the members or something.  The other clubs, when we showed them that we were single digit handicaps, were happy to let us play from the backs.

In general, I have found that the farther north you go in Scotland, the easier it is to play from the medal tees.  On my first visit to Cruden, I walked up to the white tee on the first hole and my caddy started to make fun of me.  He asked if I didn't think I could handle it from all the way back!  So, back I went and away we went!

BTW - One of your books (I can't remember the name and I'm not at home to look) was very helpful in planning the England portion our trip.  Thanks!

[Bob_Huntley]

K.Durrant,

If Kingsbarns and Skibo were adjacent to each other, I may well play the former eight times to the other's one. If I needed to travel to the same degree of latitude as Moscow, where Skibo is located, I would pass. Having Dornoch within spitting distance of the course would also have a dampening effect on my desire toplay it.

I have not played Loch Lomond, but several friends tell me it can get a bit boggy at times.

Kingsbarns is an absolute joy and not just because it only costs me fourteen pounds to play!

[David_Tepper]

I posted a link to a story on the Skibo/Carnegie course here not too long ago. I think it was from the Northern Times newspaper website (www.northern-times.co.uk). The story was about how there was some substantial renovation work currently underway on the Skibo course. I don't think every hole at Skibo was being changed, more like 5 or 6. Clearly, it will not be the same course that it was before.  

[Pete Lavallee]

Mark;

I'm intrigued as to why so many UK clubs don't want us hitting drivers, pegged 2 inches above the ground off their back tees? Although many Clubs will let you venture back there when proving you have single digit capabilities, what really is their primary motivation? Is it preservation of teeing grounds or making sure the visitor doesn't bite off more than he can chew?

[Dan Grossman]

Pete -

Mark is the expert, but it is not just visitors which are restricted from playing the medal tees.  Most members are not able to play from there unless there is a competition.  Most places have signs which say that the tee is "reserved for competition" only.  Competition is much more important in the UK than it is over here and I think it is just one of the ways in which they reinforce that fact.  

What do the UK GCA'ers say?