The best greenside bunker configurationS

[Patrick_Mucci]

Does the 18th green at GCGC represent the best, the most diverse combination of greenside bunkers in golf ?

A green that is pitched back to front.

Two deep pot bunkers immediately short of the green
A DEEP, STEEP rectangular bunker to the left of the green
A long, deep bunker wrapping around the rear of the green

What other greens provide three or more seperate bunker configurations ?

[JSlonis]

Pat,

Excellent point.  GCGC may have the most diverse set of bunkers on any course I can recall.

Pot bunkers, deep and medium- greeside
Deep greenside troughs or strip bunkers
Perfectly flat strip bunkers(cross bunker on #4)
Waste type bunkers w/ grass(#1, #9)
Normal depth fairway bunkers
Deep pot fairway bunkers
Large waste type fairway bunkers

I never really thought about this until your post, but Garden City has the widest variety of bunkers that I can think of.  Like you said, what is even more surprising is that many can be found on the same hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JSlonis,

What about the large convex bunkers ??

I think the multiple configurations are a wonderful asset, except for those on # 12.

[Gene Greco]

#3 at NGLA has quite a variety of bunker shapes and sizes surounding its green.

Deeper two on the far right higher part of the elevated side with somewhat larger faces, two shallow and rectangular ten yards short of the green, a half pot to the right of that and several others on the right leading leading up to the green.

Plenty of variety but not as much contrast in style when compared to #18 GCGC.

[JSlonis]

Pat,
 
I knew I'd forget one type.

No wonder I like that course so much.

[Joel_Stewart]

Are they all original bunkers or have different architects added them over the years to create such diversity?

[SPDB]

Pat -
I'm glad to see a post from you about the Men's Club, which is every bit the peer of NGLA in terms of variety and randomness of its bunkers. The frequency, creativity and seeming randomness of the bunkers is what gives both of these courses their enduring character, and separates them from anything that has been built since.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

When you consider that GCGC sits on rather gentle terrain, the enormous bunker variety at GCGC is rather unique.

Joel Stewart,

Review of the 1936 aerial reveals that little has changed over those years.

Obviously, the 12th hole was altered and magnificent, deep, fronting and backing horse shoe bunkers were destroyed.

On # 7 a magnificent trench bunker has been allowed to disappear.  It's a bunker similar to the trench bunker that borders the right side of # 3 fairway. The trench remains,
but with the shifting of the fairway, maintainance practices and the absence of sand, most golfers never see it.

The 16th hole, left greenside bunker has been lost to a pond, which was the topic of another thread.

The 5th hole and the 14th hole have undergone some changes at the green end, including bunkers.

A bunker was recently reclaimed while being relocated on the right side of # 9 green.

And, unfortunately a bunker/s was/were disfigured recently on the right side of # 17 green.
 

[ForkaB]

I'm not at all sure what the value is in having different style bunkers on any one hole.  Feels more like the architect is showing off (or confused...) rather than trying to create any particular challenge to the player.

[James Edwards]

Richard,

Agreed...  Do we have any pictures of these 'said' holes?

[Joel_Stewart]

Pat:
Has GCGC ever rebuilt their bunkers (as a group) or is it on as needed basis?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich & James,

If you saw the 18th hole in person, your thinking would be changed, instantly.

The bunkers are in perfect harmony with the putting surface and the area immediately surrounding it.

Perhaps some of the photo experts on site could post photos of the bunkers on # 18.

Joel Stewart,

I don't understand your question.

[JSlonis]

Rich and James,

Given all the different styles found at Garden City GC, I can't recall any hole where you would find a particular bunker style that has been forced into place.  I don't think there is any "showing off", even though there are different styles, (except for the 12th) each bunker really fits into its surrounds.

What is great about this at Garden City GC is the subtlety in which it occurs.  Until Pat's post on this, I hadn't really noticed how varied the bunkers were.  Nothing really jumps out at you as being out of place, or out of character, so not until I went through each hole, did I realize this occurence.

[archie_struthers]

 

Always like to put in a plug for Mr. Banks and his bunker complexes whenever I get the chance. Forsgate has some great work that I still have vivid images of twenty years after playing there.

Also on a local note I think Fazio did a nice job with the bunkering at Galloway. Deep, natural bunkers that fit the character of the course.

[ForkaB]

Jamie (and Pat)

I'm not doubting the excellence of Garden City (can't anyway, since I've never been there!).  I just wonder why the fact that there are 3 different styles on the 18th hole is significant?  Would the hole be any worse (or maybe even better) if the wrap around were on the front, the deep rectangle on the back and the pots to the left (or whatever combination you choose to analyse)?  Is there something uniquely specific to the styles of bunkers and their roles vis a vis the green surrounds and the rest of the hole?  If so, that's cool, and tell us more.  If not, it's just a tour de force.  No?

[BCrosby]

Pat -

What does a "convex" bunker look like?

Bob

[Brian_Gracely]

From looking at the pictures on the Muirfield thread, how does #18 at Muirfield compare to #18 at GCGC?  Muirfield has diagonal cross-bunkers 30-40yds short, pot bunkers, island bunkers to the side, which could give you all sorts of interesting lies/swings, etc..

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

The steepness of the putting surface from back to front, would make the switching of the bunkers impractical.

It would make the shot from the rear bunker far, far more difficult, and the shot from the left side and pot bunkers far easier.

They got it right the first time.

And, so did Jslonis.  Nothing looks disconnected.

BCrosby,

Think of a globe, now lop off the top 1/4 and lay it flat on the ground.  That should give you a visual how the bunker looks.

Brian Gracely,

I've never played Muirfield so I can't comment.

[RJ_Daley]

Pat. unfortunately the course profile doesn't have a picture of the 18th.  However those of the 14th show atleast two different styles.  Combined with the picture of the 9th and that flashed up snarly greenside and the flat waste bunker 2nd shot carry, and the other holes with longer trench and turf walled mounded ones in fairways, we see some of the variety you are describing.

Pat, don't you think it is time to get a digital camera, and or a scanner.  Now that we have the Mystic Lab website at our disposal, it is easy to post pictures.  I think you owe it to us to get a glimpse at all the rarely seen private golf courses that you play, so that we can "evalute" them from your pictures. It may be the only way for most of us to know what you are talking about 1/2 the time...

[RJ_Daley]

Bob Crosby,  this is a picture of a convex bunker in the distance, greenside.  It is a mound about 12-15ft high.  This particular one is laced with turf within the mounded bunker.  The sand is laced on the far side of the bunker mound going down into the green that you can't see from this side.  The ratio of sand to turf varies in this one by season and maintenance intensity as to how much grass trimming the super does in it.  But, it is definitely convex at 12-15ft high mounded and hummocked.

[Patrick_Mucci]

unfortunately the course profile doesn't have a picture of the 18th.  However those of the 14th show atleast two different styles.  Combined with the picture of the 9th and that flashed up snarly greenside and the flat waste bunker 2nd shot carry, and the other holes with longer trench and turf walled mounded ones in fairways, we see some of the variety you are describing.

The 14th green surrounds were totally reworked by Tom Doak.  If you would view the old 1936 aerial and a current aerial you can distinguish the difference.  Unfortunately, a very, very large fronting bunker, similar to the one on # 9, has been removed.

Pat, don't you think it is time to get a digital camera, and or a scanner.  Now that we have the Mystic Lab website at our disposal, it is easy to post pictures.  I think you owe it to us to get a glimpse at all the rarely seen private golf courses that you play, so that we can "evalute" them from your pictures. It may be the only way for most of us to know what you are talking about 1/2 the time...

I hate to admit this, but I do own a digital camera.
The problem is, a month after I bought it and received instructions on how to operate it........ I forgot everything.

I also have a scanner, but, it broke recently and I have to get a new one.

Perhaps, this spring or summer, I'll make those my missions

[Patrick_Mucci]

RJ Daley,

I believe that the bunker you pictured in the foreground is a concave bunker, not a convex bunker.

The bunkers in the distance are too far to give you a good visual, unless, you have TEPaul's eagle eye.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[RJ_Daley]

Pat, now here is a worthwhile project you and Mr Paul can work on nicely together for a change.  You can both just learn to go out there and frame your shots, point and shoot.  Then learn how to come back to the computer and download your pictures of golf holes and transfer them to Mystic Lab's album.  Pretty soon you will be posting tons of photos to be evaluated by us armchair architects, and we won't even have to play the courses!  

Huckaby is an a concave one, the far greenside one is convex, trust me... and if you look closely, the picture don't lie... but, anyone that has actually played the course knows that!

[ForkaB]

Pat

I know more than a few holes which have evil back bunkers which make going for a back pin on a back to front green particularly testing.  11 at Muirfield and 17 at Woods hole come to mind.  Of course, there is always 11 at TOC, where the is no back bunker, just marram grass and theRiver Eden.

I'm sure 18 GC is a great hole, but isn't it a little bit wimpish to allow the aggressive play to have a simple splash out as the "penalty" for poor execution?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

None of the bunkers allow for a "simple splash out"

The rear bunker is deep, just not as deep as the left side bunker.  The two pot bunkers are deep with one being deeper then the other.

When you factor in the additional carry required to get to pins near or behind those bunkers, and the green angle and slope, and the fact that if you go a little further right you are now on the practice putting green with a dozen or so holes, it's not so easy.

Balls finding the left side bunker are difficult to extricate and also face the sharp left right pitch of the green.

Balls in the rear bunker face a much steeper downhill shot.

This hole is far from a pushover, on the tee or in the bunkers.