What's the correlation between bunker depth and strategic value ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

On fairway bunkers ?

On greenside bunkers ?

[texsport]

Of course it's all relative to the skill of the player, but, the maximum strategic value is realized when the bunker is so deep that recovery without a lost shot is impossible. In that instance, the bunker redirects your aiming point.

For good bunker players, shallow bunkers, unless you've short sided yourself, have minimal strategic impact. If fact, shallow bunkers may encourage a good bunker player to take a more agressive aiming line.

JK

[Dan Kelly]

For good bunker players, shallow bunkers, unless you've short sided yourself, have minimal strategic impact. If fact, shallow bunkers may encourage a good bunker player to take a more agressive aiming line.

I've played quite a bit of golf, over the past 10 years, at a couple of courses featuring shallow bunkers with *enormous* impact as hazards. I've played away from them, toward the centers of greens, innumerable times.

What's the magic?

Heavy, deep sand, without any solid foundation for bouncing your sand wedge. In other words: conditions that would make a Tour pro (among others) weep and tooth-gnash.

[Mike Hendren]

As a low-ball hitter, I'll still WAY clear of any fairway bunker that has depth beyond a couple of feet.  There are a few at my course which mean instant bogey off the tee.

By comparison, it is a rare greenside bunker that causes me to take second notice.  For some reason I can hit those shots straight up if necessary with my chocolate shafted Wilson R-90.  As Doak recently posted, bunkers are three dimensional - so the forward wall and slope of the sand is an equally important factor in escapability.  I'm not all that sure the condition of the sand has a bearing since I can switch between my R-90 in soft stuff and my 52 degree on firm stuff.  

Good question that brings back fond memories of my up-and-down from the left hand greenside bunker at Sand Hills' 11th to an extreme left-side pin

Mike

[texsport]

For good bunker players, shallow bunkers, unless you've short sided yourself, have minimal strategic impact. If fact, shallow bunkers may encourage a good bunker player to take a more agressive aiming line.

I've played quite a bit of golf, over the past 10 years, at a couple of courses featuring shallow bunkers with *enormous* impact as hazards. I've played away from them, toward the centers of greens, innumerable times.

What's the magic?

Heavy, deep sand, without any solid foundation for bouncing your sand wedge. In other words: conditions that would make a Tour pro (among others) weep and tooth-gnash.

Dan
     I don't think that touring pros would play very often or very long on a course with unplayable bunker sand.

JK

[Dan Kelly]

John --

I'm not talking about "unplayable."

I'm talking about hard-to-play.

They would play on such courses if that's what the bunkers were like on the courses where they play the Tour. If, in other words, the hazards were hazardous.

The worst four words in golf: "Get in the bunker!"

What choice would Tour pros have if the bunkers were maintained so as to be iffy/difficult? Go be a Club Pro someplace?

[Bill Gayne]

Attached is a link to the Royal Portrush web site with pictures of the massive "Big Nellie" bunker on 17.

http://www.royalportrush.com/17th.php

Also attached is a link to pictures from the tee of the tenth hole at Portrush.

http://www.royalportrush.com/10th.php


IMO the fairway bunkers on 10 due to placement are of much greater strategic value than massive (both deep and steep) 17th bunker which is penal. Does the bunker on 17 have strategic value? I think placement of the bunker has the greatest correlation to strategy and I view deep bunkers to be penal.

For those of you that haven't been to RPR new website they have some great pictures.

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

None.

None.

Did I set this one up for Pat, or what?!?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeremy Glenn,

Some deranged individual is posting under your name  

[JSlonis]

To me it depends on the bunkers location on a particular hole.  For example...If you look at the bunker renovation that Ron Prichard did at Aronimink, the fairway bunkers were made deeper and more severe, this changed the strategic nature of the tee shots at Aronimink greatly.  The greenside bunkers were also changed, but with the help of a high lofted sand wedge, unless you really shortside yourself, the strategic value is a little less.

[TEPaul]

I've tended to look at all bunkering in two separate areas.

1. The playability of their sand surfaces and their grass surrounds.

2. The architecture of them basically meaning depth, verticality or occasionally if they have something like a downslope (potential downhill lie). Possibly a few other things like their relationship to a potentially penal greenslope.

So if Pat is asking what the correlation is to bunker depth (which I consider architecture vs lie playability) to strategic value I guess I'd have to say as others have that increased depth increases strategic value (shot values) maybe to some constant degree.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I wasn't referencing lie or conditions.

I wonder if there is a depth beyond which no further strategic value is obtained ?

[TEPaul]

"I wonder if there is a depth beyond which no further strategic value is obtained?

Pat:

That's a good question. I'd sort of think not, though. Just think of the deepest and most penal bunker of your recollection. What did it make you do as far as challenging it in some way or coming anywhere near it? That should answer part of your question for you.

And next, if you happened to get in it what did you do and what were your thoughts--strategically? If it was to simply extricate yourself in any direction or any distance just to get out of it that should answer the other part of your question.

Have you ever found a bunker there was virtually no conceivable way of getting out of which might force you to play stroke and distance? I haven't, with the exception of one and I have a feeling most on here might know which that is---and it's been there for years.

Other than that one there used to be one on the other side of the same green that sure got in your head on the tee and if you happened to get in a part of it there was a fairly well known "smart play" and interestingly it wasn't even to try to get out of it but only on the next shot to the part of it you could get out of. That too was that way for many years.

The only other bunker that comes to mind was one on the right side of the fairway on #3 (I think) at Royal County Down. Basically with that one I'd never try to get out straight--I'd only try to go sideways and I'd try everything I could think of to avoid it off the tee. And I can also tell you if it was raining I'd take cover under it's overhanging front face!!! About this I am definitely not kidding--the top surround positively defies gravity!

Are any of these too penal, in my opinion? No they aren't and they certainly get your undivided attention and concentration so their strategic value is obviously very high--maybe the highest of any three bunkers I'm aware of. Well, on second thought, even they have plenty of competition that's just starting to come to mind!  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

Another great topic!

As a player, no question a deep bunker gets my attention.  It has to be really deep, though, like over head high.  As Texsport says, if you can't get out going forward, with some chance of getting to the green, it affects the aim point.  

If it is shallow enough to go for the green, I challenge it.  Why?  Because like the cat burgler or petty thief, I don't really think you are ever going to get caught, and I am a reasonable driver.  I know many better players would simply avoid bunkers, period, as it is better course management.

At one time as an architect, I thought my philospy would be to build fewer, deeper bunkers that really made the strategy.  In general, I have gotten away from that, having succumbed to the lure of the attractive amoeba more than the lore of the deep pit.  Also, I heard too many golfers complain about the consequenses of getting in bunkers.  I also heard too many course manager complain about the slow play.  (Although, as Tex will tell you, I did ignore that at the Quarry, where some bunkers are so deep, you swear you can feel the heat coming from the center of the earth' core)

Side note to self:  Am I trying to be too clever with that comment?  Will I get kicked of the approved poster list?  Time, as the newscasters say, will tell.......

At other times, I liked the Eden concept, with a deep master bunker that would make you conservative, but with bunkers on the other side of the green or fairway to catch the too conservative play.  However, if that play yields a longer shot at a worser angle, I now feel that those bunkers are largely unnecessary.  Let the golfer figure out the penalty himself after years of trying, rather than tell him outright with "stop signs" on the other side of the target as well.

Hey, did I mention that this is a great topic?

[TEPaul]

JeffB:

Where you been babe?

[A_Clay_Man]

One constant about deep bunkers is that upon successful extrication, one's soul is lifted exponentially higher than a shallow one. Deep bunkers that come to mind are on the first at CPC (leftside short of green) and the 8th at Spy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam Clayman,

I'd agree, they, deep bunkers, can make the golfer run the emotional gauntlet.

1  you challenge them, and succeed =                   happiness
2  you challenge them, and fail =                          despair
3  you fail to extricate yourself =                          depression
4  you extricate yourself =                                   happiness
5  you extricate yourself marvelously =                  Jubilation
6  you avoid challenging them & succeed =             Chagrin
7  you avoid challenging them & fail        =             Schmuck
8  you avoid challenging them, succeed, 3 putt =     Idiot  

While humorous, the above is reasonable representation of architectures effect on the play and emotions of the golfer.

Add to the above, that at the completion of that hole, the golfer must now continue his journey by teeing it up on the next hole, his mind filled with one or many emotions from his recent experience.

Now, ask yourself, would a shallow bunker present the same playing and mental challenges and emotions ?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Some good thoughts here, but not trying to spoil the thread and turn it into a Rees Jones bashing, at Santa Luz #3 exists (and maybe Matt Ward or Pete L could back this up here) a very deep and disparing bunker that influences play off of the tee. For all intents and purposes, this is the first time I have ever seen Rees Jones/Greg Muirhead actually incite the term "Line of Charm" in any of their designs, and while it was refreshing, it poses a huge problem for those who find themselves in this deep wasteland of sandy splendor. (How many of you thought I would ever describe a Rees Jones bunker like that?)

The negative about the bunker is the mounding that goes into it, which of course creates much of the depth is just too shaped and unaturale' for moi, as well as I had to crawl up and roll out of it, which of course should keep the most of you laughing pretty loud, including those in the Rees Jones offices. Maybe you saw me coming! I'm sure the thoughts of a 450 pound Electrician from Southern California rolling out of one of their bunkers gave them all of the reason in the world to create such a monstrosity!

But in closing, I think at least once or twice in the round a golf course should have a massive sandy hazard to carry, no matter if its a long carry or short, Uphill or downhill. It should be deep and intimidating as well as food for thought for me to go for it in hopes that I get to take it on. Golf just doesn't get any better then that.

Long Live The Sandy Parlour!

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Deep fairway bunkers are terrifying. When standing on the tee, you know that there are no recovery options.  I will take US Open rough over a very deep bunker every day--there is always the 5% chance you might get lucky with a playable lie.  I love the idea of deep bunkers being utilized--they force the golfer to think about bailout areas and where a miss can still offer a recovery. Deep bunkers work best when they are among some shallow ones as well.  If a course only has deep fairway bunkers, it becomes mundane.  There are exceptions in Scotland, but variety of bunkering is more worthwhile.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Here is my definition, and I would suppose David Kelly and Lynn Shackelford's definition of a GREAT greenside sand hazard.

[TEPaul]

I don't want to divert the specific question of this thread but I'd suggest that more be discussed here than just depth if we want to talk about some correlation of all any bunker can be to strategic value. The numerous bunkers on both sides of #2 fairway PVGC, for instance, are such an example. They aren't deep at all (generally no higher than your shin) but they do have curled little lips and faces and they are often very small making recovery iffy but certainly any golfer's choice of what to get out with and in which direction. If you fail to get out of one of them on the first shot generally you're feeling is that you wished you hadn't tried for quite so much. Bunkers like this are about the best, in my opinion, for fairway bunkers and even if subconsciously they definitely are in your mind on the tee so they have a high correlation with added strategic value.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Since the title is about bunker depth and strategic value, I'd prefer to confine discussion to that subject and not divert it.
We/you can always start another thread related to this.

This isn't about a specific bunker, it's look, configuration or location, but about bunker depth and its relationship to strategic value.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat- I like the humor, and I agree with the range of emotions cited. I might transpose schmuck and idiot, though. Part of my point was the marginality of those emotions. In other words, the joy and satisfaction felt, is higher than the low of the depression and despair. I will acknowledge that there is a fundamental difference between the mind set when in competition and when not.  But would you agree that the closer those two temperments become, the better the outcome (experience) for both?

Two menacing shallow bunkers reside on the 16th at Pacific Grove. The right one is the real beast, and is quite influential, when the pin gets placed on the added back right green section.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam Clayman,

I'd have to think about that, but varied emotions make for an interesting journey.

[TEPaul]

"This isn't about a specific bunker, it's look, configuration or location, but about bunker depth and its relationship to strategic value."

Pat:

No problem but if we're going to talk about just bunker depth and its relationship to strategic value there're a couple of other factors that need to be considered such as configuration, size, length and angles of bunker slopes, location in relation to other things such as the juxtaposed slope of a green surface and possibly a number of other things. All these things should go through a competent golfers mind in playing those bunkers and other features related to it. Just discussing bunker depth alone in some correlation to strategic value without considering those other factors would otherwise be a discussion in a bit of a vacuum, in my opinion.