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Dan Kelly

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Re:The Top 45 Courses Since 1959 ?
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2004, 02:54:53 PM »
Rees Jones did a fine job in "correcting" the deficiencies that Hazeltine possessed. I really enjoy the 16th hole but overall Hazeltine doesn't have much that makes me say I must return and play it.

I could be wrong, too -- but I preferred the pre-"corrected" Hazeltine, as I've previously argued (at http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=3171;start=msg61745#msg61745). I quote myself:

The original Hazeltine was LOADED with severe doglegs, mostly now departed: Nos. 1, 2 (still a dogleg, but not nearly so severe), 5 (still a sharp dogleg, the last time I was out there), 6 (sweeping dogleg still, and a lovely hole) 7, 9, 10 (great hole), 15 (sharp-dogleg tee shot) and 18.

And the old No. 16 -- a super-long peak-to-peak par-3 guarded at greenside by a big tree, and which some wag described as the only dogleg par-3 in golf -- is gone.

And the greens were considerably flattened.

I'm no expert on golf architecture generally or Hazeltine specifically, but I'm not certain that the changes greatly improved the course. The new 16 is, I think, a terrific hole -- a fantastic test of one's nerves and skill. But in creating it, I think Hazeltine lost one of its very best holes when it jettisoned the old 17 (at the behest of PJ Boatwright, I've heard, who reportedly said Hazeltine would never get another Open so long as this hole remained). I wish they'd dumped the old 16, built the new 16, kept the old 17 (a 340-some-yard uphill dogleg-right that required a long iron to a narrow saddle fairway bordered by woods on both sides and a creek on the right side, followed by a short-iron over two small ponds to an elevated green), and made it a par-73. But Boatwright had his way.

Beyond the dumping of 17, the changes I really don't care for were taking the doglegs out of both 9 and 18, which now run perfectly parallel up the same slope to side-by-side greens. Boring. I'd have straightened No. 9 a bit and left 18 a big, sweeping, uphill dogleg-left -- a really manly hole.

And I think it's too bad that the straightening of 1 and 9 and 18 resulted in the disappearance of the Children's Course, which used to reside between 1 and 9.

-----

Count me as a fan of Hazeltine, still -- though I continue to rue the changes that ... cleaned it up. They took a fair bit of its wildness away (the big doglegs, the undulating greens), and replaced it mostly with, IMO, less.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Dan Kelly

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Re:The Top 45 Courses Since 1959 ?
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2004, 02:58:13 PM »
How far is the Quarry from Sioux Falls, SD?  

Is it possible to drive there?  

The Quarry is 222 miles from my house, in suburban Minneapolis -- which is about 260 miles from Sioux Falls.

Yes, it is possible to drive there. Even here in the heart of the heartland, we are fully supplied with roads! Motor vehicles, too!
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mike_Cirba

Re:The Top 45 Courses Since 1959 ?
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2004, 03:01:36 PM »
Dan...

Thanks for the laugh!  

You know what I meant.   ;D  I may be getting into a situation that will take me into Sioux Falls every couple of months if you Minnesota guys are still talking to me.  

Jim Franklin

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Re:The Top 45 Courses Since 1959 ?
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2004, 03:20:47 PM »
Matt -

When are you going to see The Quarry @ Giant's Ridge? It has officially piqued my curiosity and I have a client relatively near there. I am thinking of taking an extra day to venture over sometime in July.
Mr Hurricane

Rick Shefchik

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Re:The Top 45 Courses Since 1959 ?
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2004, 03:23:16 PM »
Mike --

Sometime this summer you should meet us in the Twin Cities for a round at StoneRidge (Weed) or Troy Burne (Tom Lehman/Hurdzan/Fry) or Keller (1929 -- Ramsey County); you could get to the Quarry the next day by noon. We might go with you, assuming raters and non-raters can peacefully co-exist ;).

Or we could also meet halfway, at Rees Jones' newer Dacotah Ridge course in Morton, Minn. Dan and I haven't seen that one yet.

Good to hear you'll be in the area.

 
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Dan Kelly

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Re:The Top 45 Courses Since 1959 ?
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2004, 04:03:45 PM »
I may be getting into a situation that will take me into Sioux Falls every couple of months if you Minnesota guys are still talking to me.  

It's a good thing you told us now! The folks over in Sioux Falls never let anyone in without our express approval. (They think of Minnesota as a sort of buffer -- a DMZ, if you will.) Philadelphians are, as you surely understand, particularly suspect.

We'll send 'em a note right now, so you should be cleared for landing.

Give us a call when you get in. We have telephone service here, too!


"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Matt_Ward

Re:The Top 45 Courses Since 1959 ?
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2004, 04:04:58 PM »
Dan:

Any truth to the rumor that the actual Lewis & Clark trail is still being used by locals? ;D

Rick Shefchik

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Re:The Top 45 Courses Since 1959 ?
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2004, 04:09:06 PM »
Still, my question to you would be to highlight what you think are the architectural elements that elevate Hazeltine beyond the fact that it is one of the most demanding courses when the wind blows beyond 10 mph. Any person watching the highlights(?) of the Stewart / Simpson '91 playoff can see what I mean.

P.S. I'll concede the great 16th hole -- but where's the architectural heft when compared to the big name courses that have come on the scene since 1959?

Matt -- Very fair question. As Dan has already mentioned, the original Hazeltine layout relied heavily on doglegs -- perhaps too much for some tastes -- but doglegs remain a significant part of the challenge at Hazeltine. Many of the fairways are somewhat banked at the the doglegs (some canted towards the dogleg, allowing a slingshot effect, such as on 6, 7 and 11; some with the fairway canting away from the dogleg, such as on 2, 5 and 10.) I've always found Hazeltine to be a very demanding course with the driver, not just because of its length, but because of these contours and angles. On some holes you are rewarded for hitting away from the dogleg, while on others you are not just rewarded by attempting to cut close to the dogleg, but almost required to.

Hazeltine is one course on which trees are not an afterthought, or the haphazard legacy of several misguided greens committees. From the beginning, Trent Jones obviously intended certain holes to be narrow, putting even more pressure on the driver, or demanding a long iron or fairway wood off the tee. Holes 6 and 14 are my idea of terrific short par 4s, requiring real accuracy off the tee -- on 6, to favor the right side of the fairway to take the pond out of the approach shot as much as possible, and on 14 to favor the left side of the fairway to create a favorable angle into a pin tucked behind the greenside bunker on the right.

As Dan mentioned, #10 is just a spectacular hole, tempting you to try to bust a drive over the fairway bunker at the left corner of the dogleg and get a long roll down the hill, or -- more purdently -- persuading you to leave you tee shot at the top of the hill, then requiring some precise club selection for the approach which drops steeply down to the green in front of Lake Hazeltine.

The par 5s are a matched set -- two reachable, risk-reward par 5s and two three-shotters on each nine. The drives on 3 and 15 -- the long par 5s -- are the more difficult, especially since Rees Jones improved the fairway bunkering. The drives on 7 and 11 leave you free to take your best shot at getting close enough to go for it in 2 -- as Rich Beem did at 11 during the PGA. That was one of the more thrilling shots I've seen in a major championship, and I give some credit to the hole itself. The green is heavily bunkered, but open enough in front to make it worth the risk. Same with #7 -- the green is open on the front right, but the pond on the left side of the green has to be crossed if the pin is middle or back, making a three-wood second a dicier proposal, but not off the table.

I think the par 3s at Hazeltine are strong, particularly number 8, with a deep green next to a pond on the right side. I agree with your point about the wind at Hazeltine, though I didn't want to bring it into this discussion because I think the course stands on its own; but during the 2002 PGA, when #8 played straight into a 40 mph wind, the leaders were decimated there. It was the scariest mid-range par 3 you can imagine. With no wind, the water is still a real mental challenge, particularly with the bunkers and rough left of the green. If you bail out that way, you're blasting/chipping/hacking back towards the water onto a green that slopes away from you.

Holes 9 and 18 are too similar, as Dan noted, but separately they are each good holes -- they're just unfortunately placed in the routing.

#16 is a given, so I won't spend any time on it, except to say that it comes at a perfect time in the round -- when a match is coming down to the end, and a birdie or a triple are equally possible.

The greens have less personality than they used to, but they are remarkably true -- major-championship caliber putting surfaces on which you simply need to get your ball rolling and watch it track to the hole.

Overall, what I like about Hazeltine is that there are no weak or goofy holes. Each is its own fair challenge; some are birdie opportunities and some you just hope not to make double, but each demands your full attention and rewards your best shots.

I'm not going to contrast Hazeltine to Spyglass except to say that I thought there were more ordinary holes after number 5 at Spyglass than there are at Hazeltine.
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P.S. Plus: I'm realy psyched to see The Quarry later this year. I appreciate your take but if you remember Whitten's comments ... "It is already hands-down the finest course in Minnesota. Hazeltine National looks like a cornfield next to it, Interlachen like a quaint museum artifact. In the national arena, this Quarry will swallow up all Quarries before it, from Florida to California. It's a combination of Pebble Beach, Pine Valley, Merion and Tobacco Road, with a bit of architectural Tabasco sauce sprinkled in for the occasional jolt."


I really like quaint museum artifacts.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Matt_Ward

Re:The Top 45 Courses Since 1959 ?
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2004, 04:20:13 PM »
Rick:

Thanks for the detailed analysis -- how bout the idea that neither Spyglass OR Hazeltine has enough architectural heft for such a listing? ;)

P.S. Take the 9th and 18th holes at Hazeltine -- great example of the same idea being repeated again with the closings on each side. Now, both holes are not completely replicated but they are fairly similar and superb courses don't try to feature the same aspect again -- especially when it's one with the closing holes on each side.

Let's talk about the par-3's at HN. I don't see any of them really being so unique or special minus the fact that the wind blew during the PGA for #8.

I do acknowledge the wonders of the 10th hole -- hard to figure why the hole doesn't get even more attention. It's a good one no doubt.

But, Rick --- you fail to really highlight how plain jane many of the greens at Hazeltine are. They are keeping in line with Trent Jones and his theory in having these huge discs without any real unique detail that sets them apart.

I don't doubt that Hazeltine doesn't have any "weak or goofy holes" but just because you don't have the wacky crap that exists at other courses doesn't automatically mean the course possesses the kind of pizzazz to make it one of the top 45 courses since 1959 IMHO.

I salute the folks at Hazeltine for their tenacity in hosting big time events and clearly they will remain on the radar screen because of the tremendous support that golf fans from the state and region provide. Hazeltine got a major makeover by Rees Jones and even that is called into question by Dan who seems to prefer the original course as long as the new 16th can stay.

I only wish I could have played the "old" course to see how it compares to the "new" one today.