The Top 45 Courses Since 1959 ?

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

Being a media guy and knowing the history of Golf Magazine and the people who have sat in the Editor's chair there I would hope they would know that simply throwing out lists is meaningless without a bit of real soul searching.

I mean how does a magazine not know of Friar's Head? Or have the audacity to think that Hazeltine National is among the ten best courses since 1959? I mean I almost fell off the chair with laughter when I saw that. Heck, there are people I know in Minnesota who don't have Hazeltine anywhere close to being the #1 course in the state. If anything the buzz is on Jeff Brauer's new layout called The Quarry at Giant Ridge.

I don't doubt for a NY minute that any listing will be subjective but must it be so ill-informed and clearly nothing more than the cries from the lone fan in the cheap seats in deeeeeeeeep left field?

[THuckaby2]

Matt:

Well obviously they did all those things, and don't seem to care.

Which doesn't bother me in the slightest - I got a kick out of reading their list, and put no great meaning into it.

But again, to each his own....

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

The separation of architects by name points to a "brand" name mentality by the writer. There are a number of outstanding layouts that were left on the outside and clearly a little bit of legwork would have produced a far different result IMHO.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Yeah -- he got the article -- but I expect more from MAD Magzine -- opps mea culpa -- Golf Magazine.

[Dan Kelly]

Matt Ward --

Your list of 45? I'd love to see it.

[Ken Fry]

BVostinak,

The Dunes is not RTJ's in Myrtle Beach, it's Nugent's Nine holer in New Buffalo, MI.

Matt Ward,

I have to agree with you.  The first time I saw the list, I was in a crowded room and broke out in loud laughter to find Hazeltine ranked in the top 10 courses since' 59.  I'm sure Dave Hill would feel the same way (if ranking cow pastures........)

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

I always love a challenge -- so here goes ...

FYI -- Since I don't have all that much time to put them in precise order, however I've placed them in groupings of five --one other note -- I have tried to put together a buffet listing that encapsulates courses I found truly unique and not just an add-on from an architect whose pattern is fairly predictable even though those later designs may still be sound choices to play. All courses are 18 holes ... and I do reserve the right to change my mind if a case can be made.

FIRST FIVE (all listed in alpha order)
*Pacific Dunes (Tom Doak)
*Sand Hills (Crenshaw & Coore)
*The Golf Club (Pete Dye)
*The Kingsley Club (Mike DeVries)
*TPC Sawgrass / Stadium (Pete Dye)

SECOND FIVE

*Desert Forest (Red Lawrence)
*Kiawah Island / Ocean (Pete Dye)
*Muirfield Village (Nicklaus & Muirhead)
*Olde Kinderhook (Rees Jones)
*Whisper Rock (Mickelson & Stephenson)

THIRD FIVE
*Arcadia Bluffs (Smith & Henderson)
*Dallas National (Tom Fazio)
*Glen Wild (Tom Fazio)
*Harbour Town (Pete Dye)
*Pete Dye GC (Pete Dye)

FOURTH FIVE
*Black Mesa (Baxter Spann)
*Desert Mountain / Chirichua (Jack Nicklaus)
*Karsten Creek (Tom Fazio)
*Musgrove Mill (Palmer & Seay)
*Wild Horse (Proctor & Axland)

FIFTH FIVE
*Bandon Dunes (David Kidd)
*Black Creek (Brian Silva)
*Forest Highlands (Weiskopf & Moorish)
*Galloway National (Tom Fazio)
*Kinloch (Lester George)

SIXTH FIVE
*Honors Course (Pete Dye)
*Kapalua / Plantation (Crenshaw & Coore)
*Lost Dunes (Tom Doak)
*Whistling Straits / Straits (Pete Dye)
*Wolf Run (Steve Smyers)

SEVENTH FIVE
*Barona Creek (Baird & Eckenrode) & Rustic Canyon (Hanse & Wagner) -- dual entry because of their impact to the longstanding bleak SoCal public golf side!
*Black Diamond (Tom Fazio)
*Blackwolf Run / River (Pete Dye)
*Paa-Ko Ridge (Ken Dye)
*Spyglass Hill (Robert Trent Jones)

EIGHTH FIVE
*Ocean Hammock (Jack Nicklaus)
*Purgatory (Ron Kern)
*Shadow Creek (Fazio & Wynn)
*Winchester (Trent Jones and Bob Jr.)
*Wolf Creek (Dennis & Jon Ryder)

NINTH FIVE
*Cog Hill / No. 4 (Dick Wilson)
*Desert Mountain / Outlaw (Jack Nicklaus)
*Longaberger (Art Hills)
*Ocean Forest (Rees Jones)
*Tobacco Road (Mike Strantz)

Dan, please keep in mind the courses named below ... I have not played them, however, I respect the comments from certain key individuals and therefore believe they may make my own listing after I have played them hopefully this year ...

Black Rock (ID)
Cuscowilla (GA)
Friar's Head (NY)
French Creek (PA)
Harvester (IO)
Sutton Bay (SD)
The Quarry at Giant Ridge (MN)

[Tom_Doak]

I think that's Gary Galyean's personal list.  The omissions are not surprising in that light.  I think Gary has only played one of my courses, so I'm batting 1.000!

It may also help to explain why a few of Rees Jones' courses rank way higher in the GOLF Magazine top 100 list than on other lists ... considering Gary is in charge of the polling for GOLF.

Imagine if they had published Matt's list instead ... I think it would have generated at least as much second-guessing.

[TEPaul]

Matt;

You know me--I basically hate the whole ranking deal and although I haven't seen or played a lot of the courses on those lists I have some idea about most of them but I really do get a good feeling about the direction and the gist of your lists!!

[ForkaB]

Matt

Thanks for the list.  Have you played Applebrook?  If so, any reason it's not on the list.  I think it compares very favorably to the 7 of your 45(6) that I have played.

[T_MacWood]

Matt
You appear to be fickle...or perhaps GCA has had an effect on your tastes...two years ago Nantucket and Lost Canyons were masterpieces (and The Bridge).

Should any list without Friars Head be taken seriously...I personally don't think so?

Is Dick Wilson and RTJ's complete fall from grace justified?

What do you see in Longenberger...routing, natural features, greens, interesting hazards, strategic interest, holes, etc.?

Victoria National...is it unpopular to like this course...nice going JK?

[Matt_Ward]

Tom MacWood:

How bout having some bull size b*lls and produce your listing?When you do I'll be glad to discuss the merits of mine versus yours.

P.S. If you wonder why certain other courses were notlisted you need to re-read what I posted. Courses of a similar design style were simply not listed because the "original" version is the better overall layout in my mind.

Tom -- unlike you -- I do reserve the right to make changes on my listing because of updated visits and the like. I know that being in your "divine" presence the idea that you might make any type of error is beyond your ultimate comprehension.  

Bill S:

The issue with Estancia is twofold -- the place is way overwatered for my tastes -- it seems people there are more interested in the color of green grass rather than maxing out the firm and fast conditions.

Keep in mind I'll take the following TF designs long before Estancia --

Dallas National
Glen Wild
Karsten Creek
Galloway National
Black Diamond

Estancia would be somewhere after that in the next grouping of five. By the way Mirabel is a nicely designed TF course but lacks in so many ways the complete shotmaking virtues you find with Outlaw and Chirichua, to name just two. Since I don't mind the use of carts I can understand, but not agree, with the totality of your listing. I mean really -- Whisper Rock is only the 8th best in AZ? Hello!

TEPaul:

Don't know how to take your comments ... "but I really do get a good feeling about the direction and the gist of your lists!!" I guess you mean it positively -- right?

[T_MacWood]

Last I checked my balls were fine (I blame them or credit them, depending on the day, for my kids)...I've only played a fraction of the courses you have, that in combination with my skepticism toward these lists prevents me from obliging you.

Are your balls the most important tool you have in determining the merits of these golf courses?

What are the merits of Longenberger?

What is similar to VN?

Should any list without Friars Head be taken seriously?

[HamiltonBHearst]

C'mon Tom macWood post your list.  We will even let you include Hollywood,baltusrol,bethpage and other courses you have never seen.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill said:

"How many do you think have played enough courses nation-wide just themselves to be able to concoct such a list?  You've played over 1000 top notch courses, not many can say that.  Much of the time I 've played half of what you list because you get around so damn much, so the kind of top 45 you can post, not many can."

I can't say how many people would be able to even begin to concoct some sort of listing -- clearly, there are people here on GCA who can do it but they have to decide whether or not they want to be scrutinized for posting it. I do believe that far too people often supply a bit too many courses from their own part of the country -- you know, the homer effect. The NY metro area is one great example -- there;s no doubt that the area is the home a good number of outstanding courses but there are quite a few that simply gain from being "in the hood."

The key is also to provide updated info on courses because sometimes people will rate a course from "x" years ago and the reality may just be that that same course is no longer in the same shape or at the layout quality that it was previously. That's why I believe votes need to be scaled through the eyes of time. People who have seen a course within the last year should be weighed heavier than those from a time frame that is greater. Currency of information is really the mark in truly providing some real time analysis / assessment.

Bill further said, "What good is a list that is "My top 50 I've played and this includes those I haven't played but my friends that I trust tell me are that good?"  

Nothing can be rated by someone if they have not played the course IMHO. Too many people simply make assumptions -- through photos and third-hand accounts -- and fail to do the necessary legwork to make their own assessments. I've heard a great deal about Friar's Head and I respect the comments from a number of those people who have opined on the utter merits of the course. When I play the course -- not before -- will be when I can make my own assessment.

Bill, you mentioned about statistical sampling and I have own issues with that because too many times you will find numbers that are applied to one course and a whole set of numbers applying to another course by a completely different set of people. How does one know for sure that the numbers applied to one course have the same impact / meaning / definition to another?  

The only reason why I posted my listing was being asked by Dan Kelly to do so. I don't doubt people will disagree -- I'm all ears -- but before the hounds begin to bark they should shoot forward their own listing for comparisons / contrasts. I don't mind my behind being hoisted for full view but I expect those doing the sprear chucking will do likewise.

Tom MacWood starts down the thread of asking plenty of questions but takes the E-Z way out by never naming his courses in some sort of order. Like I said before if people want to play the game of critic how bout posting their favorites and we can proceed from that point.

[ed_getka]

Should Mayacama be on your list Matt? I don't know if you've played it. A few other GCA'ers have and spoke highly of it.

[Matt_Ward]

Ed:

I have only walked the property of Maycama when it was being built -- I have not played it thus far and only courses I have physically played are rated.

I have heard a good number of very positive comments on the course and I'm sure I would like to play it because a number of the newer Jack Nicklaus designs are really far beyond the over-the-top difficulty ones that he regularly produced earlier in his design career IMHO.

Ed -- if you have played the course how would you stack it against other modern designs you have played? Thanks!

[ed_getka]

I haven't seen it yet. I've been too busy traveling to look at something in my backyard.

BTW, we never finished our Hawaii conversation. What would you recommend I see on the Big Island, keeping in mind my love of quirk/non-championship golf? Think NGLA, Yale, Kingsley Club, Rustic, etc...

[T_MacWood]

Matt
Your courage in disclosing these lists is remarkable....what is even more remarkable you seem to post one every couple of weeks....thank you....I have a vision of you being approached by a stranger for directions and you hand him one of your lists (in this vision you are wearing hot pants....Katz?).

What are the merits of Longenberger?

What course is similar to VN that gave it the bump?

Should any list without Friars Head be taken seriously?

[Rick Shefchik]

Matt --

I take from your mentions of Hazeltine that you haven't played the course. I wouldn't claim that it is the eighth best course built in the U.S. since 1959, but I also wouldn't say it's a major mistake to make the list.

I've played Hazeltine a number of times and think it is a better course, hole for hole, than Spyglass. And as much is I liked the Quarry the one time I played it last summer, I'd give the edge to Hazeltine in that head-to-head, too. (I doubt that Jeff Brauer will be upset with me for that assessment; I guess it's Texsport I have to appologize to.)

Just one more voice to help you balance your panel of Minnesota opinions.

[Matt_Ward]

Rick:

I have played Hazeltine -- once immediately after the '91 Open and about 12 months before the recent PGA.

The course is a tough one -- no doubt on that score -- especially when the wind picks up as it did to Stewart / Simpson on their Monday playoff in '91.

But, from an architectural perspective there's no comparison IMHO between Spyglass Hill and Hazeltine. Spyglass offers a greater array of holes (the first four fives holes just for starters!) -- the terrain is better -- and I personally believe the reputation of Spyglass has grown since the time it originally opened. You may want to read Trent Jones own words on the subject in his book "Golf's Magnificient Challenge." I believe there is section in that book in which the grand man highlights his best work -- Spyglass is listed for good reason.

Rees Jones did a fine job in "correcting" the deficiencies that Hazeltine possessed. I really enjoy the 16th hole but overall Hazeltine doesn't have much that makes me say I must return and play it.

I have not played The Quarry at Giant Ridge thus far but you may be interested to check out Ron Whitten's comments on the course on GolfDigest.com -- simply click on the section where his course reviews are kept.

By the way -- I don't have anything against any state -- I simply pick those courses that really have something above and beyond what one generally finds.

Tom MacWood:

I only posted at the behest of Dan Kelly -- it's folks like you who only critique others but never "go out on a limb" and post your thoughts on such a subject. How weak but true to form.

Tom, Victoria National is a fine course and it likely would just miss out on the 45 courses I listed. I just personally believe the TF ones I listed are better overall courses but even if VN did make it -- it would likely be towards the very end spots on my listing.

Regarding Longenberger -- I really enjoyed the terrain and given the drab and often predictable layouts Art Hills has been known to do -- I found the course to be a real challenge to play and I also liked the overall pacing of the holes -- I don't doubt that maybe I'm giving Hills a bit of a boost given the generally weak courses I have played from his efforts (although another exception would be the Bay Island Course at Bonita Bay, FL) but Longenberger is well done in my mind.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Let's cut to the chase -- where you rate Whisper Rock in AMONG ALL of the courses you've personally played in the Grand Canyon State?

Thanks ...

[Rick Shefchik]

Matt --

Thanks for the respsonse. I never should have assumed you hadn't played a course, even if it were in China. How are the courses in China, by the way?

I have read the Ron Whitten review of the Quarry. Again, as much as I like the Quarry -- and I'm looking forward to going back and playing there again this summer -- I though Whitten was perhaps a tad more enthusiastic than necessary. Not that it matters either way, but someone else's review isn't going to sway my personal opinion that Hazeltine is a slightly better golf course.

As for Spyglass vs. Hazeltine, there's no point in arguing with the guy who built them both -- although the first five holes at Spyglass, in my opinion, is the reason the entire 18 is so highly ranked. I'll give you and RTJ the first five; from 6 through 18, in my opinion, Hazeltine wins. But I could be wrong.

[Matt_Ward]

Rick:

You make a good point -- if the first five holes are "minimized" from Spyglass how does the rest of the course fare when stacked up against Hazeltine's final 13 holes?

Still, my question to you would be to highlight what you think are the architectural elements that elevate Hazeltine beyond the fact that it is one of the most demanding courses when the wind blows beyond 10 mph. Any person watching the highlights(?) of the Stewart / Simpson '91 playoff can see what I mean.

P.S. I'll concede the great 16th hole -- but where's the architectural heft when compared to the big name courses that have come on the scene since 1959?

P.S. Plus: I'm realy psyched to see The Quarry later this year. I appreciate your take but if you remember Whitten's comments ... "It is already hands-down the finest course in Minnesota. Hazeltine National looks like a cornfield next to it, Interlachen like a quaint museum artifact. In the national arena, this Quarry will swallow up all Quarries before it, from Florida to California. It's a combination of Pebble Beach, Pine Valley, Merion and Tobacco Road, with a bit of architectural Tabasco sauce sprinkled in for the occasional jolt."

That's a big time endorsement -- but I'll wait to make my own. Be curious if you can tell me how others see The Quarry v. Hazeltine discussion? Thanks!

[Mike_Cirba]

How far is the Quarry from Sioux Falls, SD?  

Is it possible to drive there?