The Top 45 Courses Since 1959 ?

[Matt_Ward]

The recent issue of Golf Magazine featured a story by Gary Galyean on his listing of the top 45 courses that have opened since 1959. It's a curious listing and there are several that are mind boggling for their inclusion ... I have placed an * next to those I question. I have also listed a few of my own for the purpose of discussion.

I wonder what reaction the article generates?

1. Sand Hills
2. Harbour Town
3. Spyglass Hill
4. Pacific Dunes
5. Muirfield Village
*6. Ocean Forest -- I like it but not thaaaat high.
7. TPC Sawgrass (Stadium)
*8. Hazeltine National -- A major error in listing it!!!
9. Kiawah Island (Ocean) -- a possible top five!
*10. Briar's Creek -- Good layout but not thaaaaaat high.
*11. Forest Highlands (Canyon) -- I just wonder if that's too high given Whisper Rock and Chapparal Pines aren't listed.
*12. Wade Hampton -- TF's best design -- really?
*13. The Honors Course -- ahead of The Golf Club for Pete?
14. The Golf Club
15. Pete Dye GC
16. Bandon Dunes -- is the course really thaaaat good?
17. Desert Forest
*18. Mauna Kea -- Hawaii yes -- but they have the wrong course -- should have included Kapalua / Plantation!
19. Cascata -- plenty of Rees designs in the top 20?
20. Whistling Straits (Straits)
*21. Atlantic -- really?
22. World Woods (Pine Barrens)
23. Long Cove
24. Black Diamond (Quarry)
*25. Double Eagle -- truly overrated IMHO.
26. Blackwolf Run (River)
27. Nantucket -- I like it but that high?
28. Crooked Stick
29. The Dunes
*30. Shadow Creek -- I concede the engineering but where's the beef in terms of holes? I would keep it but much lower.
*31. Laurel Valley -- zzzzz!
*32. Bellerive -- wake me up puhleeeeze!
*33. Champions (Cypress Creek) -- see previous last two comments!
34. PGA West (Stadium)
35. Redstick -- have not played but yet but heard a number of positive comments.
*36. Point O'Woods -- does it have architectural depth or is it simply a hard RTJ layout?
*37. Metedeconk National -- I like the course but not at this level.
38. Jupiter Hills (Hills)
*39. Bay Hill (Challenger / Champion) -- Minus the connection to AP and the annual event where's the architectural beef here?
*40. Robert Trent Jones GC -- tough yes, but architecturally significant?
*41. Greenville (Chanticleer) -- solid course but a bit too high in my mind.
42. Shoal Creek
43. Cog Hill (No. 4)
*44. Sahalee (North / South) -- Is the layout that good given all the lumber you face?
*45. Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow) -- Fine course but at this level?

A few left out that I would include in no particular order ...

The Kingsley Club (MI)
Olde Kinderhook (NY)
Whisper Rock (AZ)
Black Mesa (NM)
Winchester (CA)
Dallas National (TX)
Glen Wild (UT)
*Friar's Head (NY) -- have not played it but clearly it's impact has been registered by a great many people I respect.
Wild Horse (NE)
Galloway National (NJ)
Karsten Creek (OK)
Arcadia Bluffs (MI)
Kinloch (VA)
Wolf Creek (NV)
Barona Creek & Rustic Canyon -- jointly for what they have provided the barren SoCal area for quality golf.
Ocean Hammock (FL)
Purgatory (IN)
Tobacco Road (NC)
Paa-Ko Ridge (NM)

There may be a few others I may add later.

[Pete Buczkowski]

Matt:

Its interesting to compare this list to Golfweek's modern list.  Do you think its a coincidence that they said 1959 instead of 1960?  (Besides the 45 courses bit.)

[Darryl_Cluster]

I would add Cuscowilla and Lost Dunes to Matt's list of those worthy of inclusion.

[John_Conley]

Redstick on the list and JIW across the street not?  AHEAD of Jupiter Hills!!  I love Redstick, but it isn't the only worthy course in that neck of the woods.

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

I thought their "list" was a little on the bizarre side as well. I think Wade Hampton is top 45 maybe not #12 though. Bulle Rock is another that I feel is more deserving than some listed.

[Andy Hughes]

Its interesting to compare this list to Golfweek's modern list.  Do you think its a coincidence that they said 1959 instead of 1960?  (Besides the 45 courses bit.)

Pete, I believe its a 45th anniversary thingie, with '59 being their first year.

[Andy Hughes]

Matt, how would you compare Tobacco Road with Pine Barrens?

[Matt_Ward]

Pete B:

Makes you wonder what the intent of Golf Magazine is when GolfWeek already does a similar thing.

Also, I have to wonder how Rees Jones has so many of his courses listed as high as they are when a place like Olde Kinderhook (just outside Albany) is ever cited for its design.

Rees has three (3) of the top ten -- and five (5) of the top 21. As a cross comparison Tom Fazio has doesn't have any top ten picks and only one selection in the first 21. Pete Dye has three (3) in the top ten and seven (7) in the first 21.

Given the amount of courses I believe could easily make such a listing I have to wonder how the criteria was applied to determine such a grouping.

Jim F:

Bulle Rock is a fine layout but if you took the totality of the TF portfolio it's likely it would not get even a mention for his top ten winning designs. I'd be curious do you really believe Bulle Rock would finish ahead of the likes of Dallas National, Glen Wild, Black Diamond (Quarry), Shadow Creek, Karsten Creek, Victoria National, Galloway National and Wade Hampton to mention just a few of the key ones. Be interested in your comments.

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

Bulle Rock is a Pete Dye design. I think it is a tremendous layout, but would put it closer to #45 than anything else. As far as the courses you mentioned (even though they are TF and not PDs), I probably would not place it ahead of any of them though I have not played Glen Wild, Karsten Creek or Victoria National. As far as PD courses, it falls after Pete Dye Club, Whistling Straits, The Golf Club, Harbortown, TOC, Honors Course, TPC Sawgrass, Blackwolf Run, and Crooked Stick.

[Pete Buczkowski]

When I originally looked at the list, I thought it included only one per year for the last 45 years and then ranked them (especially when I saw Harbour Town #2 and the other curious selections that Matt mentions).  Then I realized that Sand Hills and Ocean Forest were both opened in 1995.

Do you think the article would have more merit had it been done this way?

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

When I read an article that says 45 best courses since 1959 I have to ask what makes the courses chosen special. I believe Tobacco Road is a unique (some love / hate it) for what it is attempting to be and one has to credit Mike Starntz for his efforts and vision. I like the course and when you see how edgy it is in a number of spots it definitely has a statement about what golf design can be.

I salute TF's work at WWPB but I would place WWPB towards the lower scale of the ten best TF designs I have played. That doesn't mean to say it's not well done but is there something THERE that goes beyond say a Black Diamond or a Karsten Creek or Dallas National? I can't say that it does IMHO.

Andy -- remember -- there are only 45 positions and there's plenty of top quality golf the article didn't even mention.

Jim F:

Mea culpa -- the senior moments are happening with even greater regularity!

You're absolutely right about Bulle Rock and the PD link. I don't see Bulle Rock as being beyond what Pete did previously. If you look at The Golf Club -- I would place it first among the ones he has done -- with others like Harbour Town, TPC Stadium, Whistling Straits, Pete Dye GC to follow. Clearly the issue becomes one of do you lend support for early Dye and the more recent efforts? I believe a good number of his more recent work started to follow a certain style and formulaic pattern. I will say this about Bulle Rock that it clearly is beyond much of what one sees in Maryland save for one or two exceptions.

[Mike_Cirba]

Is this guy Rees's publicist?  

Perhaps he has a Fruedian mammary fixation.    

Is it a list of only the courses he's played, which may account for the curious omissions and additions?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

There doesn't seem to be any statement on how the courses were chosen beyond a personal preference. Given that GM is celebrating its 45th year in existence you would think there would be some sort of clarification on how such a listing was created.

Like I said earlier -- there is no way that Rees (see those ot there in GCA land who think I shill for him!) can have three (or 2 1/2) of the top ten layouts since 1959.

[Jim Franklin]

I would also add Wolf Run to my top 45. I think Steve Smyers' course is definitely worthy of consideration.

And Matt, Maryland is definitely lacking in good public golf. There are some good ones, but not much depth.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Good point / re: Steve Smyers but does Wolf Run get the nod over say his work at Old Memorial or even Four Streams in Bealsville, MD?

I hear what you're saying about Maryland public golf options but the bar has definitely risen in the last few years with layouts such as Beechtree, Mountain Branch, PB Dye, to name just three. I owuld venture to say that the depth of public golf is better in Maryland than in Pennsy.

[Jim Franklin]

I liked Wolf Run best then Old Memorial then Four Streams.  I also agree with the Pennsy public golf although I have not played some of the newer ones. Have you played River Marsh in Cambridge MD? I think it is a nice addition to our Eastern Shore.

[texsport]

If Hazeltine National is #8, then The Quarry@Giants Ridge is #7 or higher since it's clearly the best course in Minnesota.

Texsport

[Andy Hughes]

Andy -- remember -- there are only 45 positions and there's plenty of top quality golf the article didn't even mention.

I hear ya.
I have not played the other Fazio courses you mentioned, though I did get to play Pine Barrens several times years ago.  I enjoyed it quite a bit; it was far different than anything else I had played down there.  The tends to be a certain sameness or something down there generally that it didn't suffer from. I would have liked to compare it to Black Diamond.
Next month to Tobacco Road-I expect it to be a treat, and again, unlike anything else.

[Gene Greco]

Friar's Head is top five. Why the omission?

[Jim Franklin]

Gene -

That is a wonderful question. Does this list even corroborate with their Top 100 list?

[THuckaby2]

I just read the article last night and it seems to me the author Mr. Galyean makes no claims to this being anything but a list of his favorites.  It's entirely possible he's never even heard of Friar's Head... I know, it's commonly known in here, but in the outside world, you might as well be talking about something involving Robin Hood and well... OK, I won't go there.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

What's really lame is that Golf Magazine is celebrating it's 45th anniversary and when they offer a listing of the 45 best courses since 1959 there's no detailing on how they were selected or what other courses were considered but simply did not make the grade.

I don't mind the listing of courses by one person but how bout a little heavy duty research because a ton of places were simply missed IMHO.

I hate to beat up on the pub but the methodology and reasoning is central to understanding how course "X" gets selected and course "Y" doesn't. For someone to simply list something without any real understanding is no better than asking Joe Sixpack what's his favorite beer.

[THuckaby2]

Matt:

That's all well and good... but GM doesn't give much methodology when they put out their Top 100 lists... what would make you expect them to do so for this?

I just look at it as Galyean's list - a curiousity and nothing more.  Thus I have no expectations of any methodology or the like.  But that may be just me...

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Without any insult to Galyean -- but what kind of credentials does he bring to the table? When you have a magazine "pump up the volume" that this is their 45th anniversary you would think they would be a bit more aware of how to do such an article.

For a magazine -- more than just simply Galyean as its writer / author -- trying to make a major push against Digest you would think they would be a bit more aware of the research / investigation it would take to make such an article one of consequence.

There are simply too many holes to make the article even somewhat plausible.

I mean there is no way that Rees Jones gets 2 1/2 to 3 of his layout in the top ten? And, for those who think I shill for the man, that's not the case given my last statement.

I guess it's too much for me to hope for that a top shelf golf magazine would really get the extra mile in compiling such information. If I had to tag a label on the article I'd say they need a mulligan to redo it.

[THuckaby2]

On the other hand, they might not want to take away from their Top 100 list by making too much out of this...

Hey, I'd love it if they did a full-blown feature on this, with all methodology listed, pages of pictures, etc.  It would be very interesting.  I just still don't see why that is to be expected.

But to each his own....