North Carolina Magazine's Top 100 Courses for 2004

[Doug Wright]

Thanks Pete, I thought that might be part of it. C'est la vie. All you NC GCAers I'm sure have appreciated or would very much appreciate the Prichard-restored Ross gem that is Wilmington Muny.

PS I just noticed I've somehow become a YaBB God  ...There goes the neighborhood!    

Best,

[A.G._Crockett]

Doug Wright
Pete B. is correct, I think.  I would add that "The Muni" as people in Wilmington refer to the course, is overlooked only by raters.  The course stays so busy that they won't send anything less than a foursome out on weekdays before 11 a.m. during the summer.  At less than $20 to walk, and a trememdous restoration job, it is a true joy to play.  Let the raters stick to the high ticket, over-green, high publicity places.

[Doug Wright]

Doug Wright
Pete B. is correct, I think.  I would add that "The Muni" as people in Wilmington refer to the course, is overlooked only by raters.  The course stays so busy that they won't send anything less than a foursome out on weekdays before 11 a.m. during the summer.  At less than $20 to walk, and a trememdous restoration job, it is a true joy to play.  Let the raters stick to the high ticket, over-green, high publicity places.

A.G.,

Amen to that....

PS I didn't find #41 Bald Head Island all that special last year.

Best,

[Wayne Freeman]

I've only played PH#2, #7, and Duke when I made one trip there, but with regard to Duke, I thought it was a super course and awesome layout.  Hard for me to believe it could be rated so low.  

[McCloskey]

Freemahc

I always find it interesting how so many of us see courses "differently".
I was reviewing the list and thinking that the two most overrated course were probably Treybern and Pinehurst 7, and underrated was Governors Club.

I saw where you thought GC was overrated.  Have you played the course since the greens were "softened", and I am curious about why you thought it was overrated.  Of course, you might have actually liked the course and just thought it was overrated.   I actually didn't like Pinehurst 7 and it is hard to imagine it rated higher than GC.  Oh well, that is what makes the world go round.

[Top100Guru]

Where is Highlands CC?

[JDoyle]

Top100,

Highlands is in Highlands North Carolina.

Check out Ran's review of Highlands & Roaring Gap:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/roaringhighlands1.html

[Scott_Burroughs]

Jonathan,

I believe Mr. Guru is asking why isn't Highlands on the list.  I had already wondered that earlier in the thread.

Another that should be on the list is Oyster Bay.  One of my favorites among the Grand Strand courses.

[Dunlop_White]

Funny, my biggest complaint was that Roaring Gap Club was not ranked in the Top 10 to 20 in North Carolina. As I gazed  down the list at all the courses, I noticed it wasn't even listed in the Top 100 in the state for the second year in a row. But Roaring Gap is better off not being listed than having it ring in at a position somewhere in the 70's or 80's. That would be much more embarrasing.

McCloskey, I agree! I always find it interesting how so many people judge golf courses so differently. In fact, it's usually a bad sign when a bunch of my friends love a course and typically a good sign when they don't like one. ......As for the Golf Digest list for N.C., at no. 25, Linville G.C. is not ranked low enough....at no. 6, Eagle Point, while being a great place, is rated slightly too low, in my opinion.....so is Tanglewood, at no. 8 , which is not even among the best in my area....but Old North State at no. 23 is just about right.

It's odd how Wade Hampton is ranked as the 18th best in the state according to North carolina Mag. and the 15th best in the country (modern) in Golfweek?

Yes, "access" is very important. According to the North Carolina system, if Blackacre Golf Club has 10 raters who rank it between 5 and 10 in the state, it will never measure up to Whiteacre Golf Club which has 100 raters who rank it between 40 and 50 in the state. It's not an average....instead, the most points wins.

In reality,  the best way to rank in-state courses is with an out-of-state panel!!

[Michael Whitaker]

It is my understanding that the reason Wade Hampton is ranked so low in the NC Magazine ratings is because panelists are not allowed to vote for a course they haven't played... as a result, Wade Hampton does not garner enough "total points" from the NC voters to rank higher.

[FREEMAHC]

McCloskey - I played in a tourney at Governors Club proably 4 years ago. I know they were having trouble with their greens back then, but that was because of weather. I'm guessing that they redid the greens since I had last been there.

I thought the course was just OK. It had a lot of holes that just left me sort of blah. I had head a lot of good things before playing, so maybe I was just a little underwhelmed. To me, it just seemed to feel like a lot of other residential projects in the area. Nothing very unique.

[Jonathan Cummings]

MW - then the ranking system of NC mag is badly flawed.  It would be much better if they just listed WH separately as not eligible for the list due to low number of votes, than to list it and tacitly imply a "ranking".

[Michael Whitaker]

Jonathan - The NC panel uses "total score" from all ballots received to rank its courses. Wade Hampton achieves the minimum number of votes to qualify for the list (whatever that is), but is not included on enough lists to garner a vote total that would push it higher in the rankings. I think the panel's position is: if Wade Hampton wants to be higher ranked it should encourage (or allow) more panelists to play. For what it's worth, Wade Hampton doesn't seem too concerned about the result or their ranking... at least, not enough to invite more panelists to experience their course.

One of the reasons Old North State is so highly ranked (besides the fact that it is a wonderful layout) is the course regularly hosts rater outings, so, nearly every voter has played the course. This results in ONS being included on most, if not all, of the ballots... and, since the voters obviously like the course, ONS receives a high point total. Result = #2 ranking.

[Allan Long]

I've played about 1/3 of the list and the thing that jumps out (IMHO); no way on Earth Finley and Governors should be ahead of Duke and Old Town. Although the new version of Finley is
head and shoulders above the old version (at least in
conditioning), it doesn't even belong in the top 30.
 

[Matt_Ward]

Dunlop said, "In reality, the best way to rank in-state courses is with an out-of-state panel!!"

Just a quick question -- how does such a ranking fail if only in-state people do it? Does it help that they will likely see the courses on a much more frequent basis than outsiders. Please realize I'm not defending the methodology used in this case.

In my mind -- a mixture of both would likely provide the kind of balance needed in order for a more thorough assessment.

[Dunlop_White]

Matt Ward,

The basic problem is that all of the raters of NC Mag. are members of one or more clubs in the state.  Many other panelists are club professionals or city Chamber of Commerce representatives (etc.) They have their own interests to protect or promote, either deliberately or subconsiously. It's difficult to make independent judgments when they have the ability to favor their own self-interest in the balloting. Disinterested out of state panelists,if given access, could provide a more objective and accurate run-down.

[David_Madison]

Freemahc,

Come play Governors Club now. The greens were totally rebuilt, lots of drainage added, and otherwise things continue to improve. Sure, it's a Nicklaus course, and maybe that starts off as a negative in your mind. And being an active member here, I'm biased, but...

Did you play the course when the the greens were fast and firm, and the course otherwise running pretty quickly? Which holes bored you? The rolling terrain and scenic values here are unparalleled in the entire area. #'s 2, 7, and 8 on the front and pretty much the entire back nine are as varied, challenging, and interesting as anything within 50 miles of this place. Which tees did you play from? More than most courses you'll play, it's important to play the right set of tees for your game here or you'll miss much of the fun. And finally, did you have a chance to check out the view from the 27th tee, which is up on the mountain nine? As one of the highest points in the state east of the mountains, you can see 25+ miles on a clear day. And all this gave you the blahs?

[Jonathan Cummings]

MW - I understood quite clearly the system.  You seemed to just re-explain it.  My contention is - it is flawed if the try to rank order low sample with high sample events.  The low sample event is unstable and could appear, exacted like Hampton did, anywhere on the list.  These low sample events should be excluded or at least caveated.  All other panels that I know of require a minimun number of votes before a course is considered for ranking purposes.  The system is flawed.

[Cory Lewis]

It's nice to see that Keith Hills is making an appearance, having not been on the list for a while.  Just proves that the people at good old Campbell U know how to play the political ratings game!  And it's interesting that the old course, the Creek, is on the list and not the newer River course.  Of course the Creek is a better course in my opinion and I did spend several years playing it so I might be biased.  

[Dunlop_White]

Brian Gracely,

As for Wake Forest, the Brookberry Farm area has been purchased by a local realtor, Crowder, McChesney & White, who plans to build a housing development on the area which was once the anticipated location of Arnold Palmer's future Wake Forest course. This was a great piece of land for golf.

I believe they are looking into another location just north of Winston-Salem right now. Arnold Palmer clearly is their choice for architect. As for Bill Coore, I don't think they are even considering him. C & C  has not done a course in N.C. yet --  I would be so excited about this prospect if only they could get past the Palmer idea. They should have been at Old Town all along???

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I was looking down the list and figure I have played about half of them.  Not bad, but not good enough considering how close I am, and how much time I am (or at least should) be up there.  I guess that gives me motivation to get up there and see some of you guys some more.  I need to finally take Scott and Jonathan up on their offers to see more of the Triad area courses.

Having said that I thought I would post some pictures of the only two courses I have played since I have my digital camera Wade Hampton, and Rock Barn.  I especially thought some might be interested in the Rock Barn pictures since it is such a new course I doubt many have had the chance to see it yet.


The 210yd Par 3 3rd hole at Rock Barn plays diagonally over a river (sorry I dont know the name, maybe someone could help here).  The tees are located all along the bluff on this side of the river and not only can give different lengths but also can dramatically change the angle of play.  As you can surmise the tees located further down the bluff to our right will yield a shot directly across the river to a shallow but wide green.  This picture is from the back tee box looking down the river more and the green is now deep and not so wide.


The 190yd Par 3 17th at Rock Barn.  A green fronted and surrounded on the right by a large lake.


The approach to the 419yd Par 4 5th hole at Wade Hampton showing the beautiful fall foliage just starting to pop last fall.   The hole is fairly strait-away with an approach to a green nestled into the hillside right.


The spectacular par 3 6th hole at Wade Hampton plays 158yds from the back tees.  Just an unbelievable setting for the green which is slightly below the tee level and located directly behind the junction of two georgeous mountian streams that come together right in front of the green and flow off to the left side of the picture.  One of the drop dead georgeous holes Wade Hampton is known for.


Probably one of the most famous/highly photographed holes at Wade Hampton, and for good reason.  This is the stunning downhill 196yd Par 3 17th hole.  The tee shot must "split the uprights" of the two large sentinal pine trees that stand watch over the hole.  They are everpresent in your view, but in reality far enough back and wide enough that a well struck shot should not have to worry about them.  If that wasnt enough mental "strategery" all of this must be done without the view of the back drop (Chimney Top Mountian I belive) causing you too much distraction.

This is the point where I have to blow my own horn, I cannot help it.  I had one of those mystical days at Wade last fall.  In case you cannot tell I think the 6th and 17th are two of the more spectacular par 3's you will ever see anywhere, and I had the good fortune of birdieing them both in the same round that day.  With the 17th's tee shot ending up no more than a foot away from a hole-in-one.

Rock Barn is an interesting new course on the NC landscape.  It has some dramatic holes, but overall has a few that are on a little too severe topography I think to be truly great.  The course would definitely be nearly unwalkable I would think.  I am sure someone will prove me wrong telling me they have done it, but I dont think this out of shape South Carolinian could do it.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I thought about this after my last post, this would probably be as good of place as any to post a couple of these pictures of another place that probably not too many people have seen.  Headwaters located across the road from Wade Hampton it is a very small membership 9 hole par 3 course designed by Tom Fazio also.

Our very own Adam Messix is the Head Pro there.

There are some spectacular holes there, a unique place.  I have not had the chance to play, but did get to snap a few pictures so I thought I would post them here.  I dont know the exact hole numbers, as I was just doing a quick drive-by look and I am not sure we even drove them in the exact order.









Maybe Adam will even be online here to tell me what holes we are looking at exactly.

[Dunlop_White]

North Carolina Mag. also ranks the most traditional, old-style courses of each region of the state. The following link will show the results.

http://www.nccbi.org/Golf/2004BestPreserved.htm

[Brian_Gracely]

Dunlop,

Something seems backwards in that last URL, as RCC is ranked above Old Town, but it's below OT in the larger list.  Not that it really matters.

btw - anytime you want to come out to RCC to play and take some pictures and then do your photo-shop magic for tree-removal, let me know.  The Mandel plans haven't been finalized/released yet, so it's not known if tree removal is on the agenda.

[FREEMAHC]

McCloskey and David Madison - I appreciate your comments about Governors Club. I guess i should make another visit and refamiliarize myself with the layout. The weekend I played the course, it was still very wet from a long rainy period. honesty I don't remember whether it was spring or fall, but the fairways were not rolling at all. On top of that, the root system on the greens was horrendous. there were numerous bald spots and when you went to fix a ball mark it was more reminiscent of pushing sand around than it was fixing a piece of turf. The grass just had not rootdepth and essentiall fell apart in your hands. So the conditioning at the time had a big impact on my view of the whole place. After all, I am a golfer first, and architecture is purely a hobby, so the conditiong of a course is priority #1, and design 2nd when it comes to making my final opinion of a course.

Anyway, I'd love to play it again when my schedule permits. I never played the mountain nine, but it sounds fun.