[Lou_Duran]

MV is one of the top 10 courses I have ever played.  Why it does not seem to be held in high esteem on this site may be because: 1) it was done during a period of time when many here thought that architecture was in the dark ages; 2) Jack Nicklaus rubs some people the wrong way; 3) its reflection of $$$$$$$, and, to some, over-the-top "Augusta syndrome" maintenance; 4) that most participants here have neither seen the site nor played the course.

For the average player, MV is way too difficult.  Don Claypool, a former Columbus insurance executive who became the caddie master at MV upon retirement, told me many years ago about a group of well-heeled Japanese businessmen who jetted in for a round.  Apparently, they each loaded-up with a dozen balls, and after an hour or so, somewhere in the middle of the front nine, they all came in for a resupply.

The course is unrelenting; even the "easy" par 5, #15 can come up and bite you in the butt.  Never have I seen water hazards that really come into play as well as they do at MV.  Well hit, solid shots on the wrong angle are sometimes punished severely.

And the greens are something else.  During a district open tournament, I somehow found the fairway on #1, hit my second with a middle iron to within 20' of the hole, then proceeded to hit my first putt 30'+ past, the next one 4' short, my third (shaking) 1" short but on-line.  I had an extremely long day (6 hours, and barely broke 90; the medalist was the head pro Jim Gehring with a 72 who then got disqualified for using a towel to sweep sand off a green; and something like 83 made the first day cut).  Amazing, but over 25 years later, I can remember every hole and most of my shots vividly (I sometimes have a hard time remembering my telephone number).

I don't really know Muirhead's style to comment on his involvement here.  I have played numerous JN courses, and I can definitely see his imprint.  A criticism that I would have about MV is that it does not allow enough for the ground game.  It seems to greatly favor the high lofted, soft landing shot.  The course also has great topographical variety and a very nice mix of holes.  One definitely has to think his way around it.  

[Forrest Richardson]

This might be Desmond's reply:

"Well, I can tell you this: I taught Jack a helluva lot about golf course design in our short time together. And I suspect he's done very well because of it. If you ever see something he has done wrong...well, it's probably because he failed to remember what I taught him!"

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Lou, You just basically described the way most Desmond Muirhead courses play. I'm telling you, I have yet to see one that was anything but a pushover. Surprizingly I have played only three courses, but have played on lots of stuff that was remodeled--and thats the best term of what he did, and every hole is damn tough. Not one hole I would call easy or a pushover. But I'm not convinced thats a good thing.

Mark, Trust me, if you saw the material I have, you would put any notion of this being Jack's course out of your mind. It just simply isn't true. There is no way a mass project like Muirfield Village, from the creation of the entire development to the Muirfield Village Golf Club itself, was going to be done by a person like Nicklaus at that timeline during his career when he was busy winning tournaments.--its just not going to happen. I'm not saying Jack didn't have a part in this. He was simply a figurehead, thats it.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

My point on TV publicity was that the added exposure DOES provide another outlet for people to see what is there. Plenty of courses don't have any visibility and suffer from the lack of widespread exposure.

I don't see your point on how course gets a lack of respect when its ratings are as high as they are. You may mean certain people on GCA but I think that cast of folks is quite small generally (except see below!).

redanman:

I hear what you're saying but please list for me better Jack Nicklaus designs you have played that are ahead of MV. If you look at the other courses that Jack designed during and right after the time of MV it amazes me how complex, fair and well routed the layout is compared to the others that the Bear's hand was involved with at that time.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I hear what you're saying but please list for me better Jack Nicklaus designs you have played that are ahead of MV. If you look at the other courses that Jack designed during and right after the time of MV it amazes me how complex, fair and well routed the layout is compared to the others that the Bear's hand was involved with at that time.

Here is a perfect example of why this thread should be titled, Why does DESMOND MUIRHEAD get no respect?

All of the Desmond talk, and Matt is still calling it a Jack course!

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

I played MV and I didn't see the elements that are generally associated with DM. Clearly, one would not confuse the finished product of MV with solo Desmond designs like Stone Harbor or Aberdeen!

Mea culpa on my part in not including DM's name originally.

Tommy -- where's the evidence that Jack was simple a "figurehead" at MV? Maybe others in the Nicklaus camp can respond to what kind of time / effort / ideas were from the Bear and those from Desmond. Clearly, both names are listed so the credit needs to go closer to 50/50 right? If not then you might as well do the splitting of hairs with other design combos too -- right?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Matt,
Yes, they were partners so the design credit should be given to both of them. But this is why with the material I have in addition to Desmond's word, I will have little trouble proving it.

[Dan Grossman]

I really liked MV when I played there as a junior.  To the course's credit, they used to (maybe still do) host USGA Junior Amateur Qualifying.  

A couple of things which I thought were interesting...

We played the back member tees (not the Memorial tees), but I didn't think it was THAT difficult.  It certainly wasn't easy, but it was only about 6,500 yds from there.

I was surprised by the width off the tee.  As a very wild junior player, I didn't have that much difficulty keeping it in the fairway.

That being said, it really rewards, IMO, the person who hits it very long off the tee.  The course requires precision with approach shots which are much easier with a wedge than a 5-iron.  

I really like the par 5's on that course.  #5 is a great hole.  #7, if I remember correctly, has a table top green with some contour.  The second shot is crucial because if you get too close to the green you can't see the bottom of the flagstick.  #11 is a neat risk reward hole.  I remember being impressed with that hole before I new a darn thing about architecture.

For those of you who like the ground game, #13 is a perfect hole.  If you can stay in the left side of the fairway, a running hook is one of the best ways to get at a left pin.

I really enjoyed the course and it still remains one of my favorite courses that I have played.  

As far as the housing is concerned, I don't remember it being offensive.  Bobby Rahal's house sticks out, but other than that I don't remember any.  When I was 16 I was always concerned with hitting houses adjacent to the course.  To the extent that I never did that at MV, they can't be THAT close.  

[Mark_Fine]

Maybe MV shows DM's "range" as an architect.  I have not studied the course's history so my comments were only based on experiences in playing MV and many of his other courses.   I have nothing against DM.  I actually was a member at one of his courses - Mission Hills in Palm Springs for many years.  

[Forrest Richardson]

As to the comment, "...[Desmond]...really never did anything truly world class..."

Desmond has a better grasp on the "big picture" than just about anyone I have ever known. I'm really not sure what "World Class" means. I suspect it means slightly different things to different people.

I would guess the following:

a) Respect from clients
b) Respect from those within one's profession
c) Jealousy from those within one's profession
d) Projects throughout the world which get media attention (and not just from golf publications — but from real life media)
e) Feature interviews about one's ideas and work
f) Ideas and designs which are copied and embraced by others

Desmond did all this. And I suspect, like the "hot shots" of today which will be forgotten or misunderstood forty years from now, he really could care less.

[DPL11]

I was told by a very reliable source (present day archie) who worked on the MV project during construction, that DM had alot more to do with the design and final outcome of the golf course than Jack.

That was his story 10 years ago, when he was doing work for me.



Doug

[Lou_Duran]

I was in Ohio when MV was being built, and was privy to some of the goings on.  While I have no idea what % Muirhead or Nicklaus contributed to the design, I am fairly sure that Nicklaus was hyper-hands-on throughout the process.  In fact, my recollection is that there were some comments that he got so involved in the details that he picked-out the final china, silverware, and with the help of his wife, the color patterns.  I've probably been to the course a half-dozen times, and at more than on half of those ocassions I've seen him on the course working and/or playing.

Tommy,

Bent Tree and MV bear no resemblance on either how they look or play.  Of course, that does not mean that DM did not play a very important role at MV.

I would love to see the MV plans at the KPIII.  One thing about DM, if you met him you could never forget him.  He was a true man of distinction, though I am much more acquainted with his writing than I am with his architecture.

BillV,

Pace of play and difficulty are not what make MV great.  In my opinion, if you could find a good golfer who knew nothing about who did what architecturally, but had an understanding of the game, he would come away totally impressed with MV.  The only criticism that I would have of the course is its lushness, and that it does not allow for much of a ground game (air golf).  I have been told that many of the original members preferred the much easier CC course.

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