Why Does Victoria National Get No Respect?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dramatic looking Fazio course located in a former quarry with a devout golf enthusiast in J.P. Morgan, The majority of the Golfweek people who were there thought it was just so-so, yet Tom MacWood, who I think has one of the better eyes in the Game rates it very good.

Could it be because of one paticular member? Nah!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[David Wigler]

Tommy,

I will give it its proper due.  It is a phenominal golf course.  GW cleary gave it a pretty fair amount of respect in rating it 45th in the country.  I suspect that it only isn't higher because (And the irony of this statement is not lost on me) it is probably too hard for some golfers.  Victoria is something special and a must see for anyone in the Midwest.  Along with Shadow Creek and Glenwild (Which I hope only didn't make the top 100 becuase it lacked raters), I believe Victoria represents the best of Tom Fazio.  

[SPDB]

Tommy - Why do you think it doesn't get respect? All evidence seems to be to the contrary. Based on your motivations in posting this thread, I suspect you made the mistake of adding "no" to the title.

[Top100Guru]

I played there in the Friedman Cup Invitational in 2002.....it is a very difficult course with a million tee box choices...par 3's are very tough....I only didnt like the second shot on 14 (up the hill) and the par 5 15th is not so good....I understand that they knocked the hill down on 14 last year, or so I heard...there also was one really goofy green complex on the front, I think it was 7 or 8...a long par 4 with a very weird green....the real problem with V.N. is that it is literally in the middle of nowhere....We will see what the reviews are in 2006 when the US Senior Amateur comes to town...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean,
Once again you have to get your mind out of the gutter. The member thing was just a friendly little jive at JakassaB who sort of did the same thing on his Five Farms post. Nothing more then that. From his silence, I would assume he knew this. I do in fact like John as a person. A great big teddy-bear of a guy!

There probably won't be a lot of GW raters to come on here and comment about the course, and that is there right and I can't speak for them, but the course did in fact NOT receive as much heavy praise for it as I thought it would have justly got during a Rater event there.

From images, it looks to certainly deserve the praise that those who have posted here give it and if ever in Indiana I'll be the first to call JakassaB up to go for a look (Just a look) if he'll have me.

If someone has pictures of the course, I would be glad to host them if we wanted to post them here on the site. Just email me.

[Joel_Stewart]

I'm not sure what type of respect it should get?  Its rated in all of the magazines and probably in the proper spots?  I haven't played it but of all the Fazio courses that are out there, for me it is probably the most intriguing.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tommy, I thought it get a good deal of press and respect as well. This is inspite the fact it is not in an easy accesable location. And the fact that Fazio keep churning out courses on pretty good pieces of property.

[SPDB]

Tommy - With Joel and Tiger in the gutter with me, I'm looking pretty good.

How exactly is my mind in the gutter?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean, YOU know exactly what I mean!

Once again, naming people on this website would be a breaking of the Golfweek rules, since most of them that attended that paticular event were the ones that expressed their feelings to me. If they find the gothcies to post what they feel is their EXACT opinion as they told me, then so be it.

Sean, So what are your experiences and thoughts of Vic National?

[SPDB]

I've never been there, hence why i didn't offer an opinion of the course in this thread, either respecting or disprecting.

[Paul Richards]

Tommy:

I think Victoria National is a spectacular course and the second-best in the state.

[Nick Pozaric]

I have played there a couple times and love the course.  Almost every tee box you stand on you say wow because of the view.  To be honest the last few times I have played  Ihave noticed the conditioning has gone down a little bit around the edges, such as cart path borders, flower beds etc.  I also dont like 18th as a finishing hole,  Ithink it is kind of weak, last time we played it from the middle tees and we were hitting sandwedges.  Other than 18 I think every other hole out there is excellent.  Great course with a great staff!

[Nick_Ficorelli]

I got worn out climbing up and down just trying to find the proper tee boxes. What an irritating setup. Never can claim to be walker friendly.

[JakaB]

I got worn out climbing up and down just trying to find the proper tee boxes. What an irritating setup. Never can claim to be walker friendly.

That one made me laugh...I guess we need more and bigger signs pointing unaccompanied guests around the course.  

[Mike_Cirba]

John;

I thought you were just upset because the maintenance on the flower beds has apparently been slipping.  

[JakaB]

Mike,

Don't forget the turf at the cart paths...The only time I see a cart path is when I'm looking for my ball...and when you get that far off line..it ain't good.

[Mike_Cirba]

Now, if that Fazio guy had put in easily maintainable cartpath edges and flower beds in the first place...  

[Nick Pozaric]

I was using those examples as showing lack of attention to the details, the small stuff.  Glad I could amuse you.

John;

I thought you were just upset because the maintenance on the flower beds has apparently been slipping.  

[Mike_Cirba]

kygolfer;

Please accept my apology.  

As a group, we tend to have pretty twisted senses of humor in here and I didn't mean to belittle your post.

I think if you hang around for awhile though (I see you're relatively new here), you'll see that some of us are pretty adamant that things such as flower beds (and even cart paths) have no place on a golf course.  

Yes, we're dinosaurs, so feel free to poke fun back!  

[Matt_Ward]

I'd be curious to see how those who are TF fans and those from the other side would assess Victoria National versus the other major layouts that he has designed over the years?

I've had the opportunity to play a good selection of his designs and I can't name many designers who throw forward a heavy dose of unique and interesting designs.

Clearly, making the top five would be a tough act for Victoria National given the competition of ...

Dallas National
Glenwild (Park City, UT)
Karsten Creek
Black Diamond / Quarry
Galloway National

It's possible Victoria National might just grab the sixth positoin in my estimation ahead of the ones listed below.

Wade Hampton
Shadow Creek
The Estancia Club
The Preserve
*I have heard a few rave comments about his new effort in NC called Diamond Creek.

Many folks likely have not played the first three I have listed but I would take them as the three finest overall TF designs I have played. First rate sites and equally challenging golf that's more than the pro forma eye-candy label TF has
heard from those observing his other touted layouts in his portfolio.

Be curious to see how VN fits into the total picture or does it?

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

Where would World Woods Pine Barrens fall on your list of Tom Fazio courses?

I thought it was wonderful.  

[SPDB]

I would also put Johns Island West and Forest Creek in the good list (could be better, i don't have a relative sense, as I haven't played VN). I'd also elevate Wade Hampton.

[Matt_Ward]

JakaB:

My understanding is that Andy Banfield did all of the top five I listed but I'm not absolutely positive. Maybe others can say for sure.

The course that NO ONE speaks about is Glen Wild in Park City, UT. I played it last year and simply loved it. The design is quite long (over 7,500 yards from the tips) but given the elevation it's not overly taxing for those who can hit it.

The design is way much more than eye-candy and pro forma bunkers that are routinely and quite correctly trashed IMHO on GCA. The finishing stretch is also well done and with golf just starting to gain a toe-hold in this predominant ski area I am sure more and more info will filter out about the golf options available there.

I can certainly understand the feelings of people regarding TF's "restoration" work but when you take some of the drop-dead beautiful properties he has to work with and couple that with the manner by which the golf has been designed I have to say his talent is clearly there in those instances.

By the way I really enjoy Victoria National and although it has dropped from it's original rating listing it still has enough to be rated among my personal top 100.

SPDB:

One of the issues I have with Wade Hampton deals with the fact that it's usually moist and often quite wet. I have played WH a few times over the years and its a rare day when the course really is anywhere near firm and fast.

WH makes for wonderful scenery -- again a TF eye-candy plus but where's the beef for a number of the holes? If you stack up WH against the top five I listed there's really a noticeable difference. If there was ever a course that is overrated as a main stay in the top 50 courses in the USA it's Wade Hampton IMHO.

One other thing -- I have played Forrest Creek -- it's quite good -- but it's not a top five TF design in my mind. Thanks for mentioning John's Island West -- I have not played it and will include it during ym next foray to the Sunshine State.

Mike C:

Mea culpa on my part -- I would place World Woods / Pine Barrens in the second listing -- I don't see it as a top five TF designed layout. For those who have played WW / PB and Black Diamond's Quarry Course I would be interested to see if anyone believes PB to be ahead of the layout in Lecanto? I don't.

One other thing -- the Quarry Course is a bit more sophisticated from a design perspective than just the noted quarry holes although I believe the 18th is a real downer bor a closing hole.

P.S. Plus -- I would also include The Quarry at LaQuinta (CA) but more towards the second listing and nearer towards the botton of it.

[SPDB]

I would put WWPB over Black Diamond. Black Diamond has a great stretch of holes, but i think PB is more consistent throughout.