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Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 5
"The look"
« on: September 19, 2000, 04:47:00 PM »
This is a particularly annoying term to me ... that every new course should have a certain amount of flashy bunkering and native grass and so forth in order to be cool.

If this were so, then Winged Foot and Pinehurst No. 2 and most every Donald Ross course would have to be classified as failures.

Instead, we need more of them.

The most striking thing to me about the top 25 courses in the world is how different they are from each other.


Tim_Weiman

  • Total Karma: 0
"The look"
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2000, 05:19:00 PM »
Tom,

I've always thought that one of the most challenging things for members of your profession is to keep coming up with something new, something different.

Nonetheless, I agree.  Trying to produce "the look" makes no sense.  It's okay to borrow good ideas and blend them into the design, but overall, the goal should be to produce something unique.

One of the things I most enjoy about what Fazio did at Sand Ridge, my home course, was come up with a course that didn't remind me of anywhere else I've played.

Tim Weiman

Daniel_Wexler

  • Total Karma: 0
"The look"
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2000, 01:07:00 PM »
Tom

I could not agree more.  If I consider my own ten or twenty favorites, it's amazing how different they all are in style, ambiance, etc.  Yet the concept of creating something unique seems lost on many of today's bigger-name designers.  Then again, here in Southern California, we've got a handful of new courses that might actually be unique-- but certainly not in ways that one would be proud of.


Gib_Papazian

"The look"
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2000, 01:42:00 PM »
Dan,
Are you related to Tommy N?  ;-)

Daniel_Wexler

  • Total Karma: 0
"The look"
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2000, 04:47:00 PM »
Gib:

You MUST see Tierra Rejada (a Robert Cupp "masterpiece") and then you will deeply understand.  Actually, ask Ran Morrissett who toured the place with Geoff S. and myself a couple of months back.  I think he enjoyed the ride...

PS - Everyone tells me the The Cascades, just north of here, is even worse.  Hint for avid viewers of this site:  Power lines!

Also, I'm glad you enjoyed the book!


Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 1
"The look"
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2000, 04:49:00 PM »
Tom,

The first I heard that phrase was from Mike Hurdzan.  First, he was commenting on designers going for it, but a few years later he embraced it.

I thought it referred to the excessive contouring we all (oops, sorry, not you) got into in the mid to late 80's. Personally, I have reduced earthmoving substantially, and find I get just as good a look with a few MacKenzie style bunkers. I'm working harder to incorporate more grasses for contrast.

Both these elements are traditional. After all, if bunkers look like MacKenzie, they can't be all bad, can they? One thing I find perplexing about this site is that if a Golden Age architect creates 50 carry bunkers (look at Geoffs pictures) he was a goddamn genius, but if Gary Kern does them, well, thats just overkill! On that recent post, I thought Gary did an excellent job of taking a featureless plot of land and creating a memorable par 3 late in the round.  Everything I know about design (which could fill a very small book, mind you - if it had large print) says make every hole memorable and distinct, and use artificial features (sand) to do so when there are no natural features. Although basing my opinion on just one picture, I'll bet Gary did that. And if the good doctor returned, as in the book,"The good doctor returns", I'll bet he would say so, too.

Someone please explain the difference to this poor old country bumpkin from Texas, will you?

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tommy_Naccarato

"The look"
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2000, 11:21:00 PM »
Jeff,
You got me to break my silence after an almost three-day self-imposed ban.

There is not one damn thing wrong with Ron Kern's work at Purgatory Golf Club, at least by the look of the pictures.

While this may be a complete different style then his previous work(s), I have to say that I suitably impressed by the look of the images.

I think the Good Doctor would be also.

Is it a gimmick? Yes, maybe it is, but it is a return of a style that is much needed-natural sand hazard mixed in with splotches of greens, browns and golden hues. the bunkering looks to be of the same effort that Mac ardently strived for. There is no framing, a welcome breath of fresh air, and if there is, it is completely over-shadowed by a direct "Line of Charm" that the critiques have completely missed.

So why do we pass this off as eye-candy one minute and then praise the use of modern day cross-bunkering in another post?

I couldn't begin to tell you.  But I can say that until we recognize a sign to return to old school values, the game is still going to go straight down the crapper for me. (at least golf design wise.)

I was recently in-directly chastised in a group email for my rating team, as "not being open minded" and that my integrity was, "if a certain designer didn't have a name or reputation, that the project was trash." But in that same email I was also called a "Stalwart" which I take as a great if not ultimate compliment. I think my feelings of Mr. Kern's hard efforts will show that statement as untrue, or at least the people who conceived it as such.

Another "Group" effort that is getting my attention and praise is by the team of Curley & Schmidt. They are taking a "void of anything remotely good" landscape in Southern California and at least making the effort to get it done on a scale of literally spitting the courses out like Walt Garrison would handle a mouthful of Skoal.

Yes, there will be some mistakes, but in the end it is better then anything being done in the South end of the Golden State by any of their contemporaries.

Yes, I love the classics, but I will stand directly by a man who has immersed himself in his art and science to get it right in his view of what golf design should be like in this modern day. To do that he must encompass a direct if not supreme knowledge of how the game was conceived and how it evolved over a period of time during the 1880's to present day 21 century.  Unless he realizes those values of days gone past, his work will be without function or merit.  It is nothing more then a landscaped park.

There are some (Bill Coore) who are gifted without having to go to great lengths I have mentioned, but they are special, and will prove so over the next 20-50 years.

The majority of people who are out there doing what I call "mediocre-original" (AAAAhhh John Harbottle Chooooo!)(Just joking Gib) work with the only effort to secure more work and to do it with the same lack of passion over and over again.

I see it everyday I go to work in building construction and it is the same in golf course design and construction.

Lack of effort = a failing grade, in my equasion or estimation.

Great work Dr. Ron MacKernzie.

If I ever get to Indiana, I will make Purgatory a must see, just for your effort alone.

I will now continue my self-imposed silence.
(Thank You Dr. Katz, it is working)


Dr._Katz

"The look"
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2000, 03:48:00 AM »
Mahatma Gandhi used to sleep with women, but refrain from physical contact.

The Dalai Lama has been known to go without food or water for days in an effort at self-cleansing.

Fasting...a self-imposed denial of pleasurable or substantive activities has long been used by wise and would be-holy men as a means of purging the soul and gaining a new perspective and appreciation for life.  

Mr. Naccarato;  does this mean we now need to come to the mountaintop to visit with you?  Why...you're positively glowing!

Keep up the good work!  


Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 1
"The look"
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2000, 04:14:00 AM »
Tommy,

Thanks for the explanation.  Sometimes I think I look for consistency, and there is none on this board, nor should there be, with a wide variety of participants.

Re cross bunkering, I think TEPaul covered it a while back relating discussions with Pete Dye. Cross bunkers and carry bunkers just don't fool the good player often enough to warrant extensive use. I include a few examples in each course, because they are fun for me, and I presume the average player.

Self imposed silence? I'm honored, I think, that you broke your sacred vow for ME!  Does this site have an annual awards show, complete with the prestigious "Rannys"?  If so, you and Mike Fay are neck and neck in the "easiest to raise his blood pressure" category!

Jeff

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

T_MacWood

"The look"
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2000, 04:45:00 AM »
I'm not sure what "the look" is, just as I'm not sure what eye-candy is. The most important aspect to strong golf course design is sound strategic principals and interesting use of the terrain, without these backbones aesthetics are meaningless. With that said I do believe the greatest designs do exhibit a naturalness or aesthetic beauty that seperates them from lesser designs. They do not all have flashy bunkering that you find with MacKenzie, Thomas or Thompson, but they do have a certain natural appeal. Ross's courses are not ugly, in my opinion they are beautiful, as are the works of Macdonald & Co., Flynn, Tillinghast, Travis and many more from that era. A course that is well laid out, but aesthetically unappealing is flawed -- that is why Robert Bruce Harris is not a household name.

It is intersting to analyze "the look" of the great architect's of the past, they all seemed to have there own unique style. That unique style seems to be missing from many contemporary designers, very few have their own look and prefer to mimic the past(not necessarily a criticism just an observation). If you are going to give Rees Jones credit for anything, he should be given for at least having his own "look".


TEPaul

"The look"
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2000, 07:46:00 AM »
Dr. Katz:

If you can't come to the mountain top maybe the mountain top can come to you. Right Tommy?

"Treehouse", "Mountain top"-I love this site!


Tommy_Naccarato

"The look"
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2000, 08:41:00 PM »
Dr. Katz,
I have broken my concentration and have not achieved the level of awareness I knew that I was capable of. But now, I must speak.  I feel that in this period I have learned much about light, darkness, knowing, not knowing, temptation, discipline, etc.  And while this coming off the mountain is a failure to achieve, I do think that it is with complete merit-I MUST SPEAK.

Congratulations Jeff B, You have done it again. But I come from this exile of sorts to challenge you to build a cross bunker.  I say make it work.  See if you can really make the thing work in this day and age of the "excessive, egotistical, equipment minded-long hitter" that thinks that your challenge to him would be unfair.

I think with cross-bunkering, the player has to/must be teased. He needs to see that "Line of Charm" to make him want to go for it.

"Can I make it?" "Is it far as it looks?" or "I have to hit this over that area of the cross bunker to be in the proper position to enter the green and it's pin postion," should be what they are thinking.

Tease them by letting them see a little bit of the target, or even setting the cross-bunker on an angle, where the lower portion of of the blinding rise would enable a long driver to play for that portion of fairway.

Entice them.

A prime example would be Plainfield #15. The hole has a gentle rise to it and the cross-bunker blinds the green from the second shot.  This opens up a challenge to the good player that if he wants to go for the green he has much to contend with, or he can safely play over the safe-side of that bunker and then have an even easier shot in for bird.  Cross-bunkering has to work with the rest of the hazards and the contours of the hole to be effective. And my belief that "Placement is everything."

While Tom Paul has more or less brought up the valid points of not using it in this modern day, I will bring up a valid point where a cross-bunker has been used not only effectively, but perfectly, even for the longest of hitters, and there is certainly a tease to go for it-Inniscrone #9.

The day we played there, I had the long-hitting professional that accompanied us, hit an extra shot to see if he could carry it. He barely did in one try, and it left him with a excellent shot into the green. But on the other attempts, they were slightly less then perfect shots that left him with in essence the same shot in, only somewhat blind. If he plays any of those shots to the higher side/right, he can actually see part of the green or at least the area where the green is at. But if he tries to drive the hazard and ends up short he required a much more demanding shot. Not to mention that the green shot must be played as a bump & run from the extreme right of the green, (go for the right of the flag pole!)where it will roll to the hole for most pin positions depending on it's strength and distance.

A look? and an awesome one at that. But certainly an architect has to, in some cases, use little tricks to bolster a less then desirable site. Talking Stick would be a prime example of this, and it is done perfectly and has it's "look," and its a fierce and impressionable one at that, with those dramatic bunkers that figure into the strategy of many of the holes, and also create illusions on others.

And I have to ask a question of Tom Doak, wouldn't Stonewall be considered having "The Look" that you describe of?  I think it aptly descripts the land perfect, the tall grassess and bunkering. So much that it disguises the slopes and fall-offs such as at #11 perfectly.

In Tom's frame of work and his minimilist values, he can probably get more out of a nothing site then anybody.  I'm anxious to see what he is going to do with a perfect site like Bandon, where those values may dictate a formula that many a golf architect will want to study for many years to come, but many will not have a clue how to do it simply because they will try to emulate and not study. (See the book, "How I copied Pete Dye's style of the 80's and called it my own" by Ted Robinson)

The architect then is forced to rely on gimmicks such as wonderful and beautiful waterscapes to hide their failures, and they don't even know it.

I think if one could say that he has not had to worry about the look, it would certainly be at Bandon. It's all natural, not created.

Too many architects are going for a pleasant visual, experience that has little to do with strategy of a golf hole other then the search for lost golf balls. such is the work of Bob Cupp and his incessant use of tall native grasses to frame a hole for "The Look."  

When looking at his "The Reserve at the Vineyard" course in Aloha, Oregon, he was given one of he most demanding plots of ground because of it size.  I think this would have been the perfect opportunity for him to create his best work ever, because he had to work at it.  The topography of the land is perfect, just not a lot of room.  I

Instead of reinventing himself in this situation, he stuck by his principles which require the tall grasses and the gimmicks (A triple green)and less then memorable holes.  It is a failure of the worst kind, because it has a much better course, that had much more land to work with, by his former colleague, right next to it to compare it to.

For me, this is "The Look" of which Tom Doak describes.

I need a drink.


Tommy_Naccarato

"The look"
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2000, 08:42:00 PM »
Absoultely Tom!  The air is perfect up here and I would love to bring it down!

Dr._Katz

"The look"
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2000, 08:56:00 PM »
Mr. Naccarato;

How long were you holding all of that in?

*Note to self - It is becoming increasingly clear through observation that the "fasting/self-denial" course of therapy is best prescribed only to some of my more emaciated, less boisterous patients.  See Bill Gates.


TEPaul

"The look"
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2000, 09:41:00 AM »
I never said that cross bunkering didn't work in this day and age. I think it can work great. How about the cross bunker at PVGC's #7. It has spanned the eras as in the beginning it was a hell of a job to get over in two and now it's slowing down the immense hitters on the drive. More power to the concept and I'm not an advocate either of this policy that you can't take the driver  out of their hands.

I think a designer can do whatever he wants as long as it's thoughtful and challenging. The simple fact that a long hitter might have to go to the next tee and THINK instead of carrying his driver thoughtlessly from the previous green is just fine with me!

I don't care what they think they have to hit I subscribe to Pete Dye's philosophy of "just get those guys thinking a little and then they're in trouble". Apparently Pete may have even relished the thought of pissing off the tour players. Plenty of the old guys too tried hard to create the controversial. I think it showed them that the course was working!!


Ran Morrissett

  • Total Karma: 0
"The look"
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2001, 06:53:00 PM »
In terms of "the look", isn't one of the catches with the big name architects that people hire a Rees Jones or a Tom Fazio or a Jack Nicklaus to build them a course that .... well, looks like a Rees Jones or Tom Fazio or Jack Nicklaus designed it?

Isn't that a self-perpetuating problem and doesn't it doom such architects to become stereotyped more readily than a Thomas or MacKenzie?

And doesn't it mean that such architects will work less and less with the land in an effort to meet the owner's pre-existing expectations?


T_MacWood

"The look"
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2001, 04:12:00 AM »
Having a look or style is not a negative, it is only when it is not accompanied by interesting golf. The problem with many of the modern fellows is that they are not forced to incorporate there style with what Mother Nature has left them. They are able manufacture very similar playing holes over and over again, on properties that should require unique experiences. The need to work with nature combined with a strategic inclination produces interesting/unique results even if the architect has "a look".

Patrick_Mucci

"The look"
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2001, 05:54:00 AM »
Tom Doak,

Were you specifically refering to the 12th hole at Garden City Golf Club, with the flashing bunkers so out of sinc with the rest of the course ???


aclayman

"The look"
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2001, 08:31:00 PM »
Keeping thinking outside the box and you won't have to be married to convention, Congrtaulations.

Dan Kelly

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:\
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2004, 09:48:53 PM »
This one dovetails nicely with elements of the GCA "importance" thread.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mark Brown

Re:\
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2004, 11:22:59 PM »
Tom

Personally I like a look as long as it's native to the area and
"looks" natural. There are many parkland courses I like, but I have to admit that I normally prefer a rugged look with tall grasses and scruffy bunkers -- somewhat unkempt I guess. I suppose it reminds me of the great links courses that I love. I played Winged Foot West once and that was enough. The East course was much more fun. Call me old fashioned. I'll take Garden City and Crudent Bay over Winged Foot.

At the same time I like surprises around every corner and make me think two shots ahead to score well.