How do you turn back the Clock ?

[TEPaul]

DanK:

Really? That's all? Well, OK then--that's cool!

How much cyber elbow rubbing do you want to do? Daily, weekly, monthly, or shall I just wait for you to offer your cyber elbow so we can rub?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sal from South Shore,

Despite what TEPaul says, my comments weren't about the architecture at  FH.  They were about an attempt to change the culture of golf at a club.   A return to what some think was a better game, and it has nothing to do with C&C, routing, hole design, bunkers, tees and greens.  
It's about how the game is played.

I enjoyed playing Friar's Head, which, to me, is a critical test when I'm assessing the merits of a golf course.

What do you think of Friar's Head ?

[SPDB]

pat - there is still the matter of our wager. i thought you had disappeared forever in order to welch on it.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I think we realize when you made your comments about "culture" that you intended it to not include architecture at all!

But that's nothing more than more evidence of your "tunnel vision" and inclination to "compartmentalize" things!

Golf's "culture" may not be synonymous with golf architecture but it sure is included in it!

But I'm not at all concerned about your inability to recognize the truth about that!

Matter of fact, in your desire to always appear right I fully expect you to shift the subject to some other word to prove your point!

Perhaps you might even pick some word like golf's "ethos"!

Your inclination to always appear right reminds me of some stock analyst meetings I used to go to decades ago when I lived in NY!

The meetings were all generated by a really bright Jewish broker (of mine) who would collect some of the great old Wall St Jewish analysts as well as some of the younger whipper snappers during the Go-Go years at his apartement.

I'll never forget one of the old Jewish analysts asking one of the young whippersnappers how many "mistakes" he'd made in his career!

That whippersnapper proudly and rather arrogantly told the room he'd never made a "mistake".

All the old Jewish analysts roared with laughter and said in unision; "Kid, you really have a lot to learn!"

Not more than two years later that young whippersnapper was out of the business!

[TEPaul]

SPDB:

Is it "welch" or "welsh"?

I think it's "welsh"!

It depends whether Pat was trying to sneak away from his bet with you or whether he's been somewhere in the last few days imbibing too much grape juice!

But we can let the great inhouse wordsmith, Dan Kelly (tm)  be the judge of this!

[SPDB]

Tom - you're probably right. i'm young, and don't have a solid grasp on those type of hackneyed expressions.

Also, you managed to stay in securities analysis two years after a comment like that?

 

[Dan Kelly]

SPDB, Tom I --

It's "welsh."

"Welch" loses the word's essential ethnic-slur element.

Which reminds me:

Last night, one of my regular correspondents e-mailed me an item from a Welsh newspaper. You'll find the story at http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/page.cfm?objectid=12291305&method=full&siteid=89488
, under the headline "TINY PENIS MAN FREED."

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

A bet is a bet, and if there are no yardage makers, you've got yourself a dozen balls or dinner, or both.

TEPaul,

Thanks for the lecture and story, I'm sure someone found it interesting and germaine.  I don't know who, but I'm sure someone out there, probably Jewish, found it interesting.

I'm sorry that you resent that I tend to support a fact based position.  I realize that theories and assumptions can be so much more interesting, inconsistent and incorrect.
But, we each make choices.

So, at Atlantic, where there are no tee monuments, no colored flags, no red, white and blue markers, no pin sheets, where caddies and walking are strongly encouraged, it's about the architecture ?  Rees Jones's architecture ?
Interesting theory.

If you would take off your C&C blinders, you'll discover that it's about Lowell Schulman's early influence, just like FH is about Ken's influence.

Architecture has absolutely nothing to do with accessories on a golf course.  NGLA has directional markers on # 3 and # 16.
GCGC has warning directional markers on # 4, # 10 and # 17.
GCGC sprinkler caps have yardages on them.  Are these items about the architecture, or the will of the owner/membership ?

Didn't I read a post of yours that said C&C also developed a cure for cancer, heart and liver disease, and the aging process ?    

[TEPaul]

SPDB:

Nice zinger but I never was in securities analysis! Frankly, I have no idea why I even went to those meetings!

But as far as me being "right", if I haven't already, I'm admitting here and now that I've been wrong more in my life than I've been right!

But both being aware of that fact and also admitting it is one of the reasons I so enjoy the on-going dialogue with Pat Mucci!

You see, another thing I learned in those analyst meetings those decades ago is the value of the "theory of contrary opinion!"

And as everyone here knows if you can find a person like Pat Mucci who is undeniably wrong almost all the time all you really have to do to be right is to disagree with him almost all the time! One of those old Jewish stock analysts might call this unusual but delicious condition a "no brainer!"

So it might appear when I discuss things on here with Pat that I think I'm right or even insist I'm right almost all the time but in reality all I'm doing is just going with the undeniable odds that Pat is undeniably wrong just about 98% of the time!

If Pat was a stock analyst, with my undeniable "contrary opinion" application with him I'd be a damn rich man after two years on here discussing things with him!

[TEPaul]

Pat;

No, I definitely never said anything remotely close to C&C having a cure for cancer, liver or heart disease or the aging process but at this point I can certainly understand how and why you might have assumed you read such a thing!

[Dan Kelly]

Patrick --

I'm curious what you have to say (if anything) to what Rick Shefchik, Dick Daley and I had to say on this thread.

Dan

PS: That goes for the rest of you, too! I'm not trying to show any BIAS for or against Patrick!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Would you reread a post you made on an Aronomink thread.
Something about agreeing with me, about membership responsibility.
Seems that you're agreeing with me and saying this more and more.
Are you feeling okay ?
Could you take a drive on Ardmore road today and look at the greenside bunkers at # 10 and the right fairway bunker on # 1
Then you can agree with me even more.

Once you're in the tractor beam of truth, there is no escape.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

You're just going to have to stop taking credit for my original thoughts and the things I write about them!

It's usually called plagarism!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I have to hand it to you.

You coined the term "maintainance meld"
You coined the term " greens within greens'

And now...... you've coined a new term.

Could you tell us what the term "plagarism' means ?

[Dan Kelly]

TEPaul,

I have to hand it to you.

You coined the term "maintainance meld"
You coined the term " greens within greens'

And now...... you've coined a new term.

Could you tell us what the term "plagarism' means ?

I know what it means.

It means "maintenance."

[TEPaul]

Dan:

Come again?

I coin the terms and it's your responsiblity to deal with mundane things like spelling and occasionally meaning!

Things like spelling and meaning are virtually bagatelles to me because I'm aware that meaning is validly not much more than what anyone wants it to be!

Except of course for Pat Mucci, because whatever he wants something to mean is inherently wrong anyway!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I mean, I'd like you to be right for a change,

Is that inherently wrong ?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Of course it's inherently wrong! That's simply because you think it's right!

Listen, Pat, on that other thread about your suggestion for NGLA's clubhouse, I certainly can imagine that it was NOT supposed to be leaked but someone leaked it and it sure wasn't me! I think they know I know you over there but I've never actually admitted that!

But if you want me to, I'll be glad to fix that outrageous rumor to make it look like the suggestion came from some guy like Rich Goodale who escaped to Scotland in embarrasment!

[Mike Hendren]

After reading Patrick Mucci's original post, I flashed back to the final scene in Field Of Dreams that shows a steady progression of headlights snaking their way to a baseball diamond carved in a cornfield.  Thank goodness IT'S OPEN TO THE PUBLIC!

Don't get me wrong, I belong to a private club.  Friar's Head might indeed be a great example, but it will likely be a destination only for those who already regularly golf their ball over the handiwork of Messrs. Ross, Tillinghast, Flynn, Raynor and MacDonald, to name a few.  99.9% of the nation's golfers will never have the opportunity to experience the epiphany Patrick predicts.  Accordingly, I predict Friar's Head will have no impact on the game whatsoever.  

Why should it?  The game is bigger than the architecture over which it traverses.  If I want to roll back the clock,  I'll keep walking and carrying my bag, even though I'm fifty pounds overweight.  If I want to roll back the clock,  I'll continue to play out of a nasty divot even when I'm already twelve over par and playing by myself.  If I want to roll back the clock,  I'll finish in three hours.  If I want to roll back the clock,  I'll tackle a false front from eighty yards out with a knock-down 8-iron.

It's not the responsibility of a golf course, its architect or its management to preserve the integrity of the game.  It's up to you and me.  

Besides,  if you want to roll back the clock, look beyond Friar's Head to Brora, Shiskine, Crail, Lunden and Leven.  You don't even have to go back that far - maybe only to 1971 when somebody had the nerve to build a little 3,000 yard nine hole golf course in a cotton field in the rural West Tennessee town I grew up in.  That was as pure as it gets.  

Regards,

Mike  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Has another private club, ANGC influenced golf in America ?

I think, like Sand Hills and Bandon/Pacific dunes, golfers will seek Friar's Head through whatever means is at their disposal.
And, I think those that are attracted to, and make the journey to Friar's Head will extract and take back to their club, those things they find attractive or admirable.

Perhaps this is how trends begin.

Even if nothing changes, those who golf at Friar's Head will have had a unique experience and the game is certainly none the worse for it.

Rather than be negative or critical, one would think that Ken's efforts should be appreciated and applauded.

But, that's just my opinion, TEPaul is still wrong  

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I don't think Mike Hendren was negative or critical at all! Matter of fact his was a wonderful post to read!

I do agree though that Friar's Head will definitely have a real impact in some circles and probably on some important people who may follow the trend set there with courses they may do in the future or others may do!

I'm a little sorry to see this thread appear to devolve to a private vs public discussion because I don't think Friar's Head and what Ken Bakst has tried to do there deserves that categorizing!

Some courses are just private and others public but history has certainly shown us that no matter which they are eventually either their architecture or some "culture" about them, if it's significant, will get noticed by all interested golfers.

[Mike Hendren]

Patrick,

I had no intent to be negative or critital.  I am a great admirer of the work of C&C though I have yet to experience it first-hand.  I'm looking forward to Talking Stick in February.

As for Augusta National,  you are correct in its impact on golf course design and maintenance practices.  What would that impact have been, however, without television?  Without color television?   Minimal, I suspect.  

As for exhausting any means to get anywhere, do you think Friar's Head will rate ahead of my current wish list of CP, TOC, NGLA, PV, Cruden Bay and Dornoch?  As great as these courses are, how influential are they TODAY?

Kindest regards,

Mike

[GPazin]

Patrick -

Just out of curiosity, do you use a caddy on these courses with no info &, if so, do you allow him to provide you with the info?

[Poster's note: I ask these questions merely out of curiosity & a desire to further flesh out someone's points. Please do not read in any malicious intent.]

[Patrick_Mucci]

George,

I usually don't like a caddy to volunteer information to me, mainly because I've found that the information is usually transmitted in negative rather than positive form.
ie. Don't hit it left, there's trouble there, as opposed to hit it right and short of the pin.

I also dislike it when a caddy hands me a club, as I may have different thoughts on my intended shot

I also prefer to read my own putts for two reasons,
1.  it sharpens my skills
2  I know the pace at which I hit my putts.

However, I will read a putt starting on the first green and then ask the caddy what he thinks.  Over the first few holes I develop a feel for his knowledge of the greens and will sometimes ask for a confirm on a read I'm doubtful on.

I also find that in most cases the architect has sent ample signals to my brain with respect to the shot at hand.

With poor vision, especially on cloudy or dark days, my ability to assess yardage and break is not very good.

Determining yardage is a key element for my game.
My abilities to determine yardage have diminished due to lack of practice and poor vision, hence determining yardage, vis a vis my own recollection, yardage markers, books, observing my playing partners or caddy information is data I will seek.

The data from the caddy is upon request only, and I assess his accuracy after a few holes to determine if I'm getting reliable information.

Hope that answers your question.

[Jim_Kennedy]

So Patrick, I gotta ask ya, after saying the following.....
 
I think Friar's Head is the first step in changing the culture of golf.
A golf course of interest, challenge, beauty and tradition.
A golf course swept with the wind, and the winds of change.
It is pristine, it is golf in a purer form.
Is it radically different ?  I think so.  I also think that if it wasn't radically different, it wouldn't have as great an impact in changing the culture of golf.

...... how can you not consider the architecture as being relevant to the issue? If it was mediocre no one would give a hoot about what went on there because no one would even hear about it. As soon as you spoke about the course itself you led others into including it as part of the remedy which you seek. The men who have created the courses that may have a positive influence on the direction of golf's future have all chosen to build places that reflect solid golfing values as the basis to present their respective philosophies on this culture.

If you wished to stay on a narrow focus, i.e., removing the the plastic crap on golf courses and identifying FH as an example of this cultural change then why didn't you just say that?