How do you turn back the Clock ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Many have lamented at what has happened to classic courses, and classic values.

There appears to be a desire on the part of some, to return to the past.  How can this be accomplished.

I can't speak to the equipment issue, that's in the hands of the governing bodies.  But, I do think I can speak to the values issue.

How do you accomplish a cultural change ?
how do you convince golfers to revert to a time in the past ?
How do you convince clubs to eliminate red, white and blue plastic circles in the fairway, indicating yardage ?
how do you convince them to eliminate different colored flags on the green, indicating pin locations ?
how do you rid these clubs of 150 yard bird houses, colored posts, sprinkler head yardage to the front, middle and back of the greens ?

I think you do it by creating a golf environment that is unique and special, one that eliminates all the clutter, all the vestiges of too much television viewing.  
You do it by creating a golf course that everyone wants to play...... and play again, that doesn't contain these features, and thus you begin to change the desires of the golfer,
which begins to change the culture of golf,
back to what was a truer form of the game.

I think Friar's Head is the first step in changing the culture of golf.

A golf course of interest, challenge, beauty and tradition.
A golf course swept with the wind, and the winds of change.
It is pristine, it is golf in a purer form.

Is it radically different ?  I think so.  I also think that if it wasn't radically different, it wouldn't have as great an impact in changing the culture of golf.

I think golfers, having played Friar's Head, will return to their home course with a different perspective on golf and golf courses.  And, I believe that experience will be the springboard of change.

If other clubs begin to emulate what exists at Friar's Head, the momentum for change will have taken hold and golf will be the better for it.

Friar's Head can turn back the clock by becoming an example and a destination.

How else can you do it ?

[Joel_Stewart]

Its moving in that direction but would say it began more with Sand Hills, then Pacific and Bandon Dunes.  There are others that I'm sure I'm not mentioning which serve to educate the masses.

Its still a matter of preference.  Many of the masses still prefer to watch the Masters then the British Open and play Fazios courses then older classics.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Patrick,
You're going to have to redesign two thirds of the courses in the U.S. before certain changes you mention will ever occur.
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

I was referencing non-design items, and changing the way the game is perceived.

Most of the courses could easily eliminate all of the fancy tee monuments, yardage indicators, colored flags, etc., etc., overnight, without touching the course architecturally.

Joel,

I haven't been to Mullen or Bandon so my experience with a golf course without all the clutter is in the context of Friar's Head, a course I've seen and played.

Are the courses you reference similar or identical in what they present to the golfer ?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

After hundreds of your posts accusing some on here of favoring architects like Doak, Hanse and Coore and Crenshaw it seems to me you are FINALLY beginning to figure out why we might do that!

Congratulations!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I knew that you'd insert bias into this discussion.  

My thread has nothing to do with architecture.
Nothing to do with C&C, rather the changes in culture that Ken is trying to promote for the good of the game.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Patrick,

How do you turn back the clock? You drive to Lakeville, CT. Yesterday I had the pleasure of playing at Hotchkiss Golf Course with my 7 year old son on the way back from a Boston College football game/weekend. On a beautiful fall day in The Berkshires, I had the pleasure of playing a 9 hole Seth Raynor design that Jim Kennedy my host calls a "baby Yale." Maybe there were twenty people on the course. The clubhouse is probably 250 square feet and the locker room consisted of a bench on the front porch and the commercialism consisted of a few hats with Hotchkiss Golf Course on them. Even my son noticed the Raynor greens when he noted "cool green" on number 4 which has two skinny diagonal swales which breaks the green into three sections.

Since I had my son with me, I did have to take a cart due to the hills, but the course gives you a real feeling for 1920's design. Three years ago (pre-GCA) I would have never played this course, now I can't think of a better spot to be on a Sunday in the fall. However, let's not kid ourselves, we are in the severe minority on this site. There will always be demand for cart paths, beer carts and bad design, which is a good thing because I prefer to have Hotchkiss all to myself and my son.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Ken is trying to promote changes in culture for the good of the game and that has nothing at all to do with Friar's Head, it's architecture and Coore and Crenshaw?

I see! Hmmmm!

You really do have a very interesting way of compartmentalizing things!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

There is no doubt that we are in the minority.  

But, I think word will spread about FH and how things are done there, and I think, over time, other clubs will emulate what those who play there, see and experience, in the way of customs.

As an example, I've been in an ongoing disagreement with a few board members at my club regarding several issues.
After taking them to GCGC, and letting them see and experience how things are done there, they now agree with my position.  I would imagine that the same learning experience will occur to those that visit and play Friar's Head.

TEPaul,

You must be reading without your glasses again.

You missed the word "culture", which is not to be confused with the word "architecture"

Please put your glasses back on and reread the initial post.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Patrick,

"How do you convince clubs to eliminate red, white and blue plastic circles in the fairway, indicating yardage ?
How do you convince them to eliminate different colored flags on the green, indicating pin locations ?
How do you rid these clubs of 150 yard bird houses, colored posts, sprinkler head yardage to the front, middle and back of the greens ?"

Those trappings are a direct consequence of aerial bombardment, a type of play that many courses built after 1960 require players to adhere to by dint of their design. My earlier and succinct response was aimed at this phenomenon. You may enlighten some of your members when taking them to GCGC but I wouldn't think there is a need for all those modern accoutrements at a course where shot making is still practiced.
The culture is directly impacted by the fields of play. That is all I was trying to say.    

[TEPaul]

"You missed the word culture which is not to be confused with architecture."

Patrick:

Oh really??

I didn't miss the word culture at all.

I'm glad you said that though and I'm glad you said I should put my reading glasses on to understand what you're trying to say!

It appears what you're saying is the best evidence yet how much you tend to "compartmentalize" so many things about golf courses, golf, architecture, and probably now "culture"  etc etc!

It may be the reason you tend towards the "formulaic". It may be the reason you still fail to understand that if you tell ANY architect EXACTLY what to do you WILL NOT get the same product, although for some reason you think you will!

You apparently don't think that the architecture of Coore and Crenshaw has anything to do with the culture of Friar's Head!

I think you should ask Ken Bakst about that! I think you might find that Ken Bakst likely thinks that the entire creation of Friar's Head, including the architecture and Coore and Crenshaw very much ties in to the culture being created at that club.

You might begin to understand how much Ken Bakst and Coore and Crenshaw feel that the creation of that product is very much a symbiotic one between them! It also explains why it sometimes takes Coore & Crenshaw a good deal of time to sign a contract to do a golf course (something they tend to wait on AFTER spending a good deal of time in preliminary work).

The simple reason for that is they want to be sure that they and the client are on the same page in almost everyway! And that kind of assurance is very much a two way street. They want to be sure that the client thinks the way they do about the project and very much vice versa!

The architecture of Friar's Head very much has to do with the culture Ken Bakst is trying to create at that club!

But by all means don't take my word for it! Ask Ken Bakst and take his word for it unless of course you aren't able to believe him either. Are you going to tell him he needs to put on his reading glasses too to understand and agree with your point?

[Rick_Noyes]

I feel that to accomplish what I believe is our point is to take the emphasis off of scoring and place it into just playing the game.  I caught part of Bagger Vance yesterday and I keep thinking about the line "It's a game that can't be won, only played."  Am I missing your point?

Architecturally speaking we can create a course that demands a certain type of shot or strategy or to be cliche' provide a challenge to the scratch golfer as well as the double digit handicapper.  Or we can create a place that just allows it to happen.  I prefer the latter.  Here's the course, play it as you will and by all means, have fun.
Rick

[TEPaul]

Rick:

With that idea in mind, wasn't it C&C who conceived of the Notre Dame course without any real attachment to par?

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

Pat:

It will take more than a golf course that very few will be welcomed to see much less play.  which by the way, I can not imagine it has been played enough by knowledgeable people to say that strategically it is a great course.  Must it not past that test before it becomes the turning point in the history of mankind?  It takes a book that sets down the basic tenets that you and the classical bishops hope to set in canon law.  You have to spell it out, give a manuel to the troops.  I think the game needs to be saved first.  The game is being sold out by serious golfers who are making serious money off the business side of the game.  FH may be the turning point but you need documentation, a bible for the faithful.

Otherwise, you keep moving backwards, and I'll keep moving forward and hopefully we will meet up someday.

By the way, Sweeny's story of playing golf with his son says a lot about the game.  More of the faithful should spend more time on the course with their children.  I got to tell you, with that nut down in Washington shooting up people things like a simple game of golf with friends or family which before many people thought trivial in the grand scheme of things actually seems like one of the most important activities in the world.

[A_Clay_Man]

Why, and how far do you want to turn it back? Just to the time you emulate? Caveman? Medici's, Old Tom, Young Tom, when?

Why not go forward building on the positives of past cultures. Hell, In the world today the return to past cultures is what the enemy wants. Fanatical Segregationists and separtists who have learned, from our universities, how to destroy the entire planet.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

Personally, that's easy, the day before the STYMIE was banned.  Which also preceeds massive irrigation systems.

Jim Kennedy,

I'm not sure that the quest for information is solely related to the aerial game, as opposed to the emergent general needs of our society, which thirsts for abundant amounts of data.

Sadly, I know of very few courses where conditions permit the ground game.

TEPaul,

How do you reconcile the cultural differences at the nine hole addition at Southern Hills designed by C&C to those at FH, also designed by C&C ?

Do you really believe that architecture alone dictates policy, or that those in charge dictate policy ?

Doesn't Merion have yardage markers on their sprinkler heads?
How about Gulph Mills, your home course ?

Kelly Blake Moran,

I view the attempt to change the culture of golf at FH as a good first step.

Whether it takes hold and spreads remains to be seen.

If I recall correctly, Pine Valley doesn't have yardages on sprinkler heads and neither does NGLA, although NGLA has a pocket booklet that provides hole schematics complete with yardages from varioius points.  PV may even have the same thing.  Certainly, there are no colored flags or hideous markers in or adjacent to the fairways.  The tee markers are low key and no broken tee recepticals are placed next to them.  These courses are essentially free of clutter.

At almost every Board meeting at a club I'm familiar with in NJ someone wants the red, white and blue balls in the fairway, or pipes in the rough indicating 100-150-200 yards. colored flags on our small greens to indicate pin positions, despite the fact that all but one green is visible to the golfer before he plays that hole.  Cones next to the tee markers for broken tees, boxes of seed mix for divots, garbage can recepticals, and fancy tee markers.

I think Ken's efforts are admirable, I hope that he's successful, and I hope others follow his lead.

Time will tell

[SPDB]

no yardage on Merion's heads.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

I believe they were there when I last played Merion, about two months ago.  But, double check it, like TEPaul, I may have been seeing things.

[SPDB]

played there just last week - no markers.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

I'm foolish to the point that I'm willing to bet a dozen golf balls that there were yardage indicators in the fairway.

Are we on ?

[A.G._Crockett]

Pat,
What kind of golf balls do you use?

[SPDB]

let's make it interesting. how about an all-expenses paid trip to Bandon?  

if not, then i will accept your wager for a dozen gutta- perchas (we wouldn't want to compromise our position that the ball has gotten out of control).  

[A.G._Crockett]

Pat,
What kind of golf balls do you use?

[Patrick_Mucci]

AG Crockett,

Anything that's round.

Nothing rolls like a ball.

SPDB,

I remember pacing off from markers, and had the distances to the yard.  Perhaps it was TEPaul's landmarks.

I'm prepared to go to two dozen.

[SPDB]

Pat - I played 31 holes (darkness closed us out after 13)

The caddies know the markers, and may have told you that such-and-such head was 147, and you paced it off yourself.

The second go around was sans caddies, and we had a book which instructed us on the yardage from each head.

Last week's round only confirmed what I had already remembered from past rounds.

why not a gross?  

Chip - can you confirm for me?