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Paul Richards

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GANTON - What did we miss?
« on: July 05, 2001, 06:57:00 AM »
My two buddies and I played Ganton on
Monday.

While Ganton does exhibit some of the
deepest and nastiest bunkers to be encountered anywhere, none of us was
"knocked out of our socks."

It seemed just like Walton Heath and Woodhall
Spa, which is to say, it was nice, but
why is it in the Top 100 in the World?

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Slag_Bandoon

GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2001, 07:10:00 AM »
  Vardon's spirit.  Elusive as the perfection of his grip.

Paul Richards

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GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2001, 07:12:00 AM »
due to a computer glitch, i posted this
topic twice.  please ignore the first one.
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

kilfara

GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2001, 09:18:00 AM »
Whoa...them's fightin' words!  

I'd be happy to respond, Paul, but frankly, I'd rather hear a detailed critique of why you *don't* think Ganton belongs in the Top 100 in the world and then answer your points thereafter rather than chase all of the shadows this sort of blanket assertion tends to cast. Why weren't you "blown away"?

Cheers,
Darren


Paul Richards

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GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2001, 01:02:00 PM »
Darren:

Don't want to start any fights, but ...

Ganton, Walton Heath, and Woodhall Spa
are all nice golf courses.  

My question - what am I missing?  All are
solid, good tests of golf.  But ....

First off, let me couch this by saying that
I prefer the links to the heathland, or
parkland-style courses in the British Isles.

Next, I went through my just-developed
photos, and, like I mentioned, the bunkering
is phenomenol, the course is solid, but I
just don't see this as a Top 100 in the
World.  

We were allowed to play the Medal tees, so
we did get to see "all" of the course.  The
history of the place is phenomenol, the routing is really good, but there isn't any
one hole that I would really describe as
awesome.  A lot of good solid holes, but
nothing "mind-blowing."

The course is a bit un-balanced:  Three par-
5's, but only two par-3's!  I don't know
about you, but I like to play courses that
have more three-par's.  There is quite a
bit of variety in the four-par's, but still
I'd rather have a few more 5's and 3's.

Also, the 18th hole was a disappointment.
The caddie told us to hit our drives to the
left of the pole, and hug the tree line.  We
all did so, and hit some real booming drives.
The caddie said we hit perfect drives.  Well,
they all got lost in the long stuff, through
the fairway, to the right of the road.  That
didn't make any of us too happy.

Overall, a good, stern test, but not a Top
100 course.

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

kilfara

GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2001, 02:44:00 PM »
Paul,

It's one thing to dislike a course, another to criticize it as sub-top-100 material. Your list of flaws seem to mostly fall under the category of "personal taste" - not that there's anything wrong with that at all, but I see you've said:

a) that you prefer linksland courses to heathland/parkland ones (so do I, mind you, but I try to view them as apples and oranges more than anything else);

b) that the variety of the course was a bit disappointing - which is a valid criticism to a degree (but see below), although you then say that you prefer courses with more par 3s and 5s....

c) that the 18th hole was a disappointment - but largely because your caddies either flat-out screwed up or weren't able to convey to you the sense of the blind-drive. That's not the hole's fault; as they say, the blind hole is only blind once to the golfer with a memory. When you play a hole only once, this is obviously going to be a problem - but can you really hold that against the hole itself?

And that's it. I don't mean to be mean, Paul, but I think the art of course criticism shouldn't be so coarse, if you'll pardon the pun. Narrow it down - what didn't you like?

Here's what I liked about the course:

1) Its variety.   So what if the course has 13 par 4s? (Actually, I'd just about call the sixth a par 4, too...although I'd also call the 17th a par 3, so those cancel each other out.) How many of them feel the same to you? You've got three wonderful - and wonderfully different - short par 4s in nos. 3, 14 and 17 (if you want to call the latter a par 4), doglegs with a great variety of different angles and elevation changes, holes with hugely different looks and strategies to them (six and seven, both long par 4s in my book, couldn't be much different), and so on. If you're hitting a great variety of different shots with different strategies, none of which feel the same, who cares if they're all on par 4s, really? (Far better that than playing a course with 4-6 numbingly similar par 3s and par 5s.)

2) The green complexes. Varied, always interesting and intricate; 40-footers are always difficult two-putts, and most greens definitely have a "wrong side to miss it", but most recovery shots aren't hopelessly beyond the skill-sets of lesser players. For me, they elevate the course far above the likes of Woodhall Spa. In a word, marvelous.

3) The bunkering (which you say you really liked, so I shan't elaborate).

4) The routing (ditto).

5) The number of memorable holes. Were any of them "mind-blowing"? Not necessarily, but you could probably pick a number of other great courses which can't call the 16th at Cypress Point their own, either. That said, I'll remember virtually every hole at Ganton for a much longer period of time than I will the individual holes at any number of other courses in the current GB&I Top 100. If I had to pick four, I'd plump for 4, 7, 14 and 16, but I could name another half-dozen holes which I really, really liked. And I thought the 18th was just peachy - the drive needs to either be drawn hard, against the grain of the hill, or landed softly in such summertime conditions as you must have had, and I thought the green set up very nicely through the chute of trees. A very dignified finish.

6) The aesthetics. What a pleasantly rolling course - it just reeks of "English countryside" to me in the most pleasant way. And on three sides it's bordered by flat farms...quite miraculously, really, to find such a great piece of golfing land in such oasis-like circumstances.

7) The course wasn't impossibly difficult for lesser players, nor was it it far too easy for better ones. Always a good sign, in my book.

The only thing I flat-out didn't like was that "pond" they've fashioned out of a bunker on the ninth - but I assume that must be a drainage problem or something. (The club couldn't be that lame, really, could it?) Apart from that, I couldn't quarrel at all if Ganton had a spot well up the World Top 100. I haven't played many more inland courses in America that I'd rather play on a day-to-day basis over Ganton, that's for sure.

I'm not saying I'm a know-it-all by any means, and I'm sorry if I'm picking on you unfairly. But I really think one needs to master the art of detailed criticism if one wishes to speak with such volume as to be heard among (or even above) the assembled voices of intelligence in this discussion group. Like I said, it's perfectly fine if Ganton didn't tickle your fancy. Different people like CCFADs, too - beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But if you want to convince me that I should like CCFADs more, or Ganton less, you'll need to back up your points with less subjectivity. Wanna have another crack?  

Cheers,
Darren


Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2001, 04:04:00 PM »
darren:

Here's my other crack:

At no time did I admonish Ganton - I merely
asked the question of "why is this course
in the top 100?"

The holes I did like, as you did, were #4
(how about that lone tree out at the dog-leg
in the fairway?), the fifth was a neat
short-3 par.  But then one of the strangest
5-pars I've seen - number 6 was a 442-yard
par 5!  The only other time I've seen a
5-par that short was #1 at the Broadmoor in
Seattle, although that one has one of the
smallest and craziest greens I've ever seen.

Anyone else seen any strange short 5's?

The hole with the "water-trap" was very
strange indeed.  The caddie told us that
a pipe broke and filled it up and they
just left it that way.

I've played plenty of blind holes, so that
doesn't bother me.  #18 was just a weird
one to us, that's all.  To play across the
road twice, was a bit interesting.

Darren, thanks for taking the time to
explain why you liked it.  We liked it
too.  Just not as much as you do!

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Ran Morrissett

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GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2001, 05:38:00 PM »
Paul,

What courses that aren't in the world top 100 do you think deserve to be more so than Ganton?

Where else are you playing?

Cheers,


Paul Richards

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GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2001, 05:55:00 PM »
ran:

Rye. (was in, fell off)
Machrihanish.
Kingsbarns.
North Berwick.
Tralee.
Waterville.

Just some thoughts.  I do think the top
three above are more deserving than
Ganton.  North Berwick should make it
just because so many of its ideas were
copied world-wide.

There are more than a few American courses
that I believe are better than Ganton,
but I'll leave that to another thread
so time ...

Why do you like Ganton so much?

How about Walton Heath and Woodhall Spa?

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

John_Beaumont

GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2001, 02:49:00 AM »
I read with great interest these postings about Ganton.  With regard to the course itself, I have already indicated a number of my own thoughts in an article some time back in your “In My Opinion” section.  So I’ll say no more about that here, although I would be very happy to receive comments on that, favorable or not.  Also, I may be thought to be somewhat biased, having been born at Scarborough, which is on the coast only 9 miles from the course.  I’ll confine my remarks to one small point.  That relates to the par rating for the 6th hole.  In the various guides to the course it has always been referred to as a par 4 of about 447 yards from the back tees.  This is what is stated in the yardage charts issued in the professional shop at the club, unless that’s been changed very recently.  All I can think is that the members (remember we’re not talking here for the most part of scratch golfers in the full flush of youth) generally play on the basis that the 6th is a par 5 – it probably is for most of them anyway.  Either that or just put it down to British eccentricity, or “the English disease” or whichever of the many ailments that we suffer from over here.
   Incidentally, the question as to why Ganton is such a fine golf course (and it is) can be summed up in just one word: subtlety.



Paul Richards

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GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2001, 03:08:00 AM »
John:

I'm sure you are correct that there may
have been an error in regards to the 6th
hole as a five par.

I certainly appreciate your descriptive
word of "subtle", but, as devils' advocate,
there are many subtle courses that are not
worthy of making the Top 100.

Ran:

Upon further review, in my humble opinion,
Kingsbarns is worthy of replacing
#29 Woodhall Spa, #71 Ganton, or #91 Walton
Heath on Golf's 100 Greatest Courses in the
World list.

For details, please see the thread titled
"Kingsbarns."

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Tommy_Naccarato

GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2001, 05:19:00 PM »
And Paul.........

Weren't you the one that thought that Desert Mountain-Cochise was a much better golf course then Talking Stick-North???????


Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2001, 06:34:00 PM »
Tommy:

F.Y.I.  No, I never said Cochise was
better than Talking Stick.  I have never
played Talking Stick, and, hence, would
not render that judgement.

However, I do believe Cochise is more deserving than some others that have made
the lists.  So if that makes your case,
I guess you got me.

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2001, 06:37:00 PM »
John:

I read with great interest your article
on Ganton under "in my opinion."  

It was a wonderful article and you certainly
expressed your feelings for the place
well.  I was very impressed with what you
said.  

Cheers!

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Tommy_Naccarato

GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2001, 04:20:00 AM »
Paul,
Wasn't trying to get you as much as you think. However, I do have to ask, was your host at Desert Mountain the gentleman that was in Golfweek complaining about Cochise not being in the Top 100-Modern?

John_Beaumont

GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2001, 09:42:00 AM »
Paul,

Thanks for your kind comments on my article.

Thank goodness we don’t all agree on the relative merits of courses.  If we did, this fascinating web-site would be so much less interesting.


Mark Pearce

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Re:GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2007, 07:17:43 AM »
Heres an old thread that is interesting.  I find it fascinating that Paul groups Ganton with Woodhall and Walton Heath.  I can certainly understand his reluctance to call the courses three of the best in the world.  While I like all three, I am doubtful they are top 100 good, but I don't have enough experience of world wide golf to say either way with confidence.  

A few on this site have stated that great courses are defined by great holes.  This is essentially Paul's argument against Ganton and presumably the other two courses.  However, is it fair to say that great courses are defined by great holes?  Can a course be better than the sum of its parts and therfore possibly great?

Ciao
Doesn't Ganton have some great holes?  For my part I think 14 has a shout as a great short par 4 and I suspect I'd think 15 was a great hole if it didn't beat me up so severely every time I play it.  I also think 16 (even if the cross bunker isn't in the right place anymore) has a shout.

I think Ganton has a great routing, some of the best bunkering inland in the UK and, really importantly, has great rhythm.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

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Re:GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2007, 08:49:33 AM »
Sean,

14 is great because it eitehr requires an extremely accurate (and blind) drive or a lay up with a mid-iron (not hard but care still needed) followed by an extremely prcise wedge to a green that runs away from the shot.  Banks of gorse on the left appear to obscure the line.  A great risk/reward hole and very resistant to scoring.

15 requires a long and accurate drive to still leave a longish approach to a really interesting green complex.  Is it great?  I'ma afraid I've never played the hole well (it's a real challenge towards the end of the round for someone whose bad shot is a hook) enough to judge.  It is burned into my memory, however, which I think is often an indicator of greatness.

16 is another long hole.  The tee shot presents the apparent hazard of the famous cross bunker.  However, as noted in another recent thread, to a cecent player that carry is no challenge at all.  Be distracted by the need to carry the bunker and fail to concentrate on your line, however, and you're in the trees.  Catch the downslope on the right of the fairway and you'll be rewarded with a mid-iron approach.  Leave the drive hanging in the right semi, or don't get the length to get the downslope and it's a long iron in, and anything long or left is dead.  Again, it's burned in my memory.

I'm with you, however, in preferring Woodhall Spa to Ganton.  I don't know Walton Heath, so can't compare.  I probably also prefer Alwoodley.

As to the "pond" on 9, I'm puzzled.  I played 72 holes there last summer (admittedly on two of the hottest days on record, in the middle of a mini-drought and with the course burnt to a crisp (and fabulously playable)) but don't recall any "pond" on number 9 (though they were watering the ninth fairway whilst we played). I suspect 9 (which is a really good par 5) is a tricky hole to maintain since the fairway is in the shade for much of the time.  Where is this pond?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2007, 09:07:22 AM »
I would rate Woodhall ahead of Ganton in the ratings game. However, I would rather play Ganton everyday. Ganton has a most wonderful feel and flow to it.  

Mark Pearce

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Re:GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2007, 09:31:37 AM »
On the front 9 I think 3 is a really good short par 4, 4 a tricky and challenging hole, 7's a really strong par 4 and 9 is a very good par 5.  I don't know I'd call any of them great, though, on their own.

I understand what your position on 15.  In many ways it plays a lot like 16 but without the cross bunker.  A long and accurate tee shot is required.  This time you can see the landing area but avoiding the long, deep fairway bunker on the left is crucial.  The second then plays a lot like the second to 16 (though is probably a longer shot), except that long or left leaves the chance of a chipped recovery.  Great?  I think it has a shout but then greatness is a really subjective thing, I think.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jim Nugent

Re:GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2007, 12:37:16 PM »
<P>The course is a bit un-balanced:  Three par-<BR>5's, but only two par-3's!  I don't know <BR>about you, but I like to play courses that<BR>have more three-par's.  

Doesn't TOC have only two par 3's and two par 5's?  

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2007, 12:43:00 PM »
Elie has two par 3s and 16 par 4s and still manages to be balanced (so far as I am concerned, anyway).  The Red Course at the Berkshire, however, has six of each and is less balanced than the Blue, which has a far more traditional mix.  
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Andy Levett

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Re:GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2007, 01:09:28 PM »
Guys! You’re forgetting your Patric Dickinson:

“The course is one of those well-made, close-knit sober poems from which it is impossible to pick out a purple passage – the effect is cumulative – at the end, you suddenly realise “that was really good”, and you look back to discover – and read the whole poem again. So with this course, it is not easy to pick out any brilliant or romantic passages – it has no really quotable holes.”

I agree with this, except that the realisation that Ganton is ‘really good’ comes from the off – I remember we spent the first couple of holes gushing about all sorts of stuff – turf, backdrop, this slope, that ridge – none of which defined ‘greatness’ individually but which taken together are inspiring.

I don’t really agree that Woodhall Spa has more ‘quotable’ holes. I think Dickinson could also have been writing about Woodhall Spa in the passage above and it’s hard to split them in terms of quality. Woodhall does win the ‘battle of the bunkers’ in Ran’s phrase, as they seem generally deeper and cut into the greens more menacingly. But Ganton’s putting surfaces are more interesting – not wild, but you never seem to have a straight putt.

There was no sign of a pond on 9 last September – maybe they were shamed into hiring a plumber before the Walker Cup in 2003. Does anyone have an old pic of the ‘sandpit of vast dimensions’ between 17 and 18? It’s degenerated into scrub, grass, and gorse now.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2007, 04:10:44 PM »
It seemed just like Walton Heath and Woodhall<BR>Spa, which is to say, it was nice, but <BR>why is it in the Top 100 in the World?<BR>

As both walton Heath and Woodhall Spa are in the top 100 maybe you have answered your own question.

Rankings are only opinion and thankfully greatness depends on the individual and is only jokingly measurable.

Paul, what type of course is Ganton? I ask because you make a point of course types. I have played Ganton maybe 90 to 100 times and would class it as links style.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GANTON - What did we miss?
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2007, 08:24:34 PM »
Paul, Walton Heath and Ganton are not courses that knock your socks off.  Walton Heath is pretty subtle in its ability to test the player.  Ganton is just solid from the first hole to the last.  The greens complexes and the bunkering challenge the player at every turn.  Why do courses have to be balanced?  Cypress Point has back to back par five and back to back short par fours and back to back par threes.  But maybe you have changed your thinking on some of these points, after all it has been a number of years since you played them and your course list has grown by leaps and bounds.

It is hard for me to believe that you would replace them with Tralee and Waterville.  Tralee is beautiful and has some very good holes but is very disappointing in the middle of each nine.  Waterville does not play like a  links. It has the wrong grass and every time I have played felt like I was in a bog.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

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