[David Wigler]

Saturday night at the club bar a few of us got in a fun discussion about what is the worst golf hole we have ever seen.  We restricted it to Private and CCFAD's, since they have an inherent pretentiousness that the local muni does not.  We felt that we were uniquely qualified for this discussion as we are members of Polo Fields G&CC, which Doak said in his book has the single worst 18th hole of any course in the world.

Our winner was ... #13 at The Fortress in Frankenmuth Michigan.  This abortion can be attributed to Dick Nugent's group.  The hole is a 443 yard par four with a lake bordering each side of the 15 pace wide strip called a fairway.  You have the option of hitting a 180 yard tee shot short of the two lakes and leaving yourself only 250 to the green or trying to hit driver into a fifteen yard wide landing area with water on both sides. This is just awful.  Why would any architect in his right mind puts a 15 yard wide fairway between two ponds with no rough on the longest par four on the course?

Curious what you all feel the worst hole in the world is and why?

[aclayman]

How about the worst hole, but the course must be one that gets discussed here, frequently. So, basically a course within the top 200 in the world, which is the worst hole?

[BJ Lewis]

OBVIOUSLY, there are FAR worse holes that exist in the world. HOWEVER, in regard to major courses, I think the 16th at Oakland Hills is a terribly easy and bland golf hole which strongly misrepresents the type of great golf holes that exist at OHCC. The 16th is NOWHERE near the best hole on the course yet it always gets the coverage and glory. I am willin to suggest that it is the worst an easiest hole on the course.

[JSS]

I try not to get involved on negative thoughts only positive but this thread makes me laugh.

17th at Crystal Downs.

[Nick_Christopher]

JSS,

Which aspects of #17 at Crystal Downs do you find particulary egregious?

[rjbay]

Gotta think the old 7th at Stone Harbor n Southern NJ was the very worst I have ever played. Since fixed by previous owner. Infamous Sharks Jaws par 3 which played about 190 from the back and was basically unplayableable if there was even a breath of wind. Green was aproximately 25 yards wide and in the shape of two cones connected in the middle. Two saw toothed bunkers flanked this green (rock hard) with water between them and the surface. If you were lucky enough to miss the water by virtue of a bad iron shot and land in the bunker the ball inevitably plugged, insuring your next shot would be a disaster. Desmond Muirhead used this hole as a tribute to the clashing rocks that had to be passed by Jason and the Argonauts, a roving band of mythological low handicappers. Lots of Timothy Leary in this design! Rave on.

[jglenn]

The 17th at the Old Course at St.Andrews.

The Old Course Hotel is probably the ugliest wart on the landscape, and having to hit over the thing only makes it even more omni-present.

As far as playability and strategy is concerned, for everyone but the very best players in the world, it plays as a three-shooter, devoid of any real strategy.  It's a blind lay-up off the tee (over a building), a benign lay-up with the second, and then a 30 yard pitch up the throat of the green.

It's time we stopped judging the merit of a golf hole based on the way it plays for the very best, but rather for the way it plays for the majority.  And, of course, on the way it looks, amongst other things.

[jglenn]

Oops, just noticed the subject was worst holes in America.  Oh well...  Guess I just expanded the subject.  

Fire away!

[Mike_Cirba]

The 18th hole at Bulle Rock, where Pete Dye once again phoned in the finsher at TPC Sawgrass.  Evidently, the 440 yards he created in Florida weren't enough of a challenge, so he pushed this one back to a meager 485 and decided to frame the pond with rock formations.

You can see it in all of it's glory at;
http://www.bullerock.com/South%20Course/hole18.htm

[Paul Perrella]

 rjbay,
Saw this thread in the Am but waited until this evening to post but the Jaws hole never left my mind. OK, I'll take the par 3 with the ice cream cone tee.
               Paul

[ForkaB]

Jeremy

Don't get your knickers in a twist.  For all intents and purposes, The 17th at TOC is in America.  When I was last there a month ago, there wasn't a Scotsman to be seen on TOC that wasn't carrying some Yank's bag.

And, you are right.  It is, to paraphrase Dickens, "The best of holes and the worst of holes."  If it were sitting out in the middle of North Dakota, we would be laughing at its idiosincracies.  But it ain't.  So we revere it.

Why?

[aclayman]

Rich- Did you see the beer buggy?

[ForkaB]

Adam

I was wathcin', not playin'.  Any beer buggy, Ginger or otherwise, was well out of my ken.

[TEPaul]

Jeeesus:

Two years into this site and things are getting back to square one.

Jeremy:

I think you have finally figured out the apparent beauties of formulaics in golf architecture that many Americans are very good at embracing.

Rich:

I'm just amazed. Put the Road Hole in the middle of North Dakota and you're right most Americans would laugh at its idiosincracies instead of revering it. Don't you understand by now that says everything about Americans' idiosincracries and insecurities and nothing at all about the Road Hole?

By the way, for your analyses of the hole for the good players vs the higher handicappers, the hole used to be a par 5. Anyway, if you are anything other than a really good player I would love to see you try that boring 30yd pitch or chip a few times!

[Eric]

#10 at Pacific Grove Municipal.

[jglenn]

TEPaul.

I did try that 30 yard pitch, and it's nothing really worth much.  Granted, it's more "interesting" than a 30 yard pitch towards the 3rd green at Alwoodley (not to take anything away from that hole).  But I've played pitch shots that got my heart pumping far more than that one.

The problem I see with the road hole (well, one of them problems, anyway) is that it falls within this "Segment Strategy", where it is only interesting and strategic for a small segment of the population.

We often believe that "good" strategy involves two distinct routes:  one frought with risk, the other tame as a pussycat.

But for the very good player, the "frought with risk" route may not be that risky, as he'll just blast over everything with a 3-wood and a 7-iron, without even blinking.  The higher handicapper is not even tempted by the riskier route, so is left hitting lay-ups down the hole.

Thus such holes is only strategic for a very small segment of the population, for whom the so called "risky" route is, in fact, risky.

And what does the fact that the hole used to be a par five have to do with it's merit?  That doesn't change a thing.  Would the 13th at Augusta be any different if it was a "par four"?

[T_MacWood]

Jeremy
I always assumed that a well designed golf hole tempted the very best and boldest, while providing easier options to those who prefer to play conservativiely--but not necissarily easy options. Do you believe the 17th's 460 yards is out of the range of the great majority of golfers? Is the 13th at ANGC also flawed strategically because of its length? If the yardage was reduced at these holes would it increase their strategic interest in your eyes? What is the perfect yardage for the par 4.5?

[TEPaul]

Jeremy:

You're right that changing the par on the Road Hole doesn't really change anything about the hole--it's just a mental numbers game.

But I'm wondering why you say that it has  no real strategic merit and why you say it's just a benign second shot lay-up followed by a 30yd pitch. What if you decided to not play the benign lay-up and you decided to go for the green? Is there something about the hole that completely prevents that or is it just that trying it is quite risky and possibly very exciting because of it?

[jim_lewis]

One day a few months ago when I was in a particularly negative mood, I sat down and made my list of the worst 18 holes I have ever played, by hole number. I have not posted this list until now because it seems to me that there is enough negative already on this site. Besides, I will certainly step on a few toes. However, since David has opened the door and Jeremy has already critcized one of golf's most sacred holes, here goes.

I have tried to confine my list to courses that many on this board have played.

#1.  Tot Hill Farms, Talamore, Pinehurt #8,
    Beaver Creek, Pinehurst National

#2.  Musgrove Mill

#3.  Pinehurst National, Caves Valley

#4.  Tot Hill Farms

#5.  Sand Pines, Long Cove, Ogeechee

#6.  Colleton River-Dye, TPC-Sugarloaf,
    Salishan

#7.  Melrose, Honors Course

#8.  Copper Creek, CC of Virginia

#9   CC of Castle Pines, Tobacco Road,
    Secession, Salishan

#10. Castle Harbor, Bloody Point, Wild Dunes,
    Pinehurst #6, The Virginian

#11. Sahalee

#12. Bear Creek, Newcastle (Seattle)

#13. Governor's Club, Tobacco Road

#14. CCNC Cardinal, Tot Hill

#15. "Pinehurst" Plantation

#16. Bandon Dunes

#17. Wade Hampton, Myers Park, Old Tabby,
    Sand Pines

#18. Bloody Point, Yale, Witch Hollow, Barton
    Creek-Foothills, Treyburn.

Obviously, there were many cases where I just could not settle on a single hole, so I listed them in order of my dislike for them.

Anytime I was stuck for a candidate, I could always select one at random from Tot Hill Farms or Tobacco Road! All you guys who accuse me of being in love with Fazio, please note that there are 7 Fazio holes on my list. Also, Nicklaus 5, Palmer 4, Dye 4, Strantz 4, Rees 3, and Ross 0. I chose not to include any holes from Olde Beau, which has the worst collection of holes I have ever seen, by far! I hope that few, if any, members of this board have ever played it.

It's tough to pick single worst hole I've ever seen, but I'll go with #1 at Tot Hill Farms. You have no idea where to Hit your tee shot primarily because of a 15-20 foot ridge that extends from the right rough out about midway the fairway. On top of that ridge, in the middle of the fairway, is a cart park/turn-around and three sets of steps leading down to the fairway. The green is a severe three tier from FRONT to BACK!

I reserve the right to refuse to defend my position on any hole. It's just my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[TEPaul]

Man, yesterday did I ever see one of the worst holes I've run across from the perspective of dumb in how it can and can't be played. It's about a 90 degree dogleg left 400yd par 4 from a high tee across a river below to a fairway about the same level as the tees. Never before have I seen a golf hole that has been as shutdown and screwed up in every conceivable way by trees.

I was officiating and it was sickening to see what these good players were running into with good shots and trying everything they could think of to not get caught up in a web of trees in almost every direction.

After an hour or so I started to really analyze this hole and could see that it actually had the potential to be a wonderful hole. The dogleg was about 70 degrees left and there was plenty of space to the right of the turn (that was rough) to use for this hole.

Basically if you took out almost all the trees on the hole and expanded the fairway well out to the right past the turn the hole could have been an excellent cape-type carry to make shortening the approach the golfer's choice.

Then along came some young bomber who took out his driver and hit the ball across the beginning of the turn of the dogleg and straight out about 100yds through the dogleg almost to the fairway of another hole (these two fairways were separated by about 100yds. He hit it so far straight across the dogleg that he got to a spot that obviously the club had never thought to plant trees. From there he really wasn't all that far to the right of looking right down into the gut of the green's orientation and he hit some shortish iron onto the green and made birdie!! I don't think this kid had any intention of hitting his drive as straight as he did (he was probably trying to hit it about 320yds with a snap hook either over or around the trees on the left of this hole. The fact that he missed where he was trying to hit it by about 150yd was laughable, but anyway.

So anyway, this was about the worst hole to play I've ever seen but if all the trees came out and maybe a really good bunker line went in on the left inside of the hole for a great cape-like carry this hole could really be something--probably even the best hole on this golf course!

[Ken_Cotner]

Jim,

Have you played Myers Park since its renovation/restoration/whatever was completed last spring?  #17 has been improved, although I'm not sure I would call it a "good" hole.  Less tree incursion and better layup options.

KC

[Craig Van Egmond]

Jim,

      I totally agree with you about #1 on Talamore, what a horrible opening hole. I don't know if I agree with #12 at Newcastle, there are far worse holes on that course, like #1 or #3.  

      My least favorite hole on a course I really like is #18 at High Pointe. What a let down of a hole.

JSS,
    I would be anxious to hear your thoughts on #17 at Crystal Downs also. Is it because of the green speeds make a front pin location almost impossible to par the hole?

[jim_lewis]

Ken:

No, I have not seen the latest version of #17 at MPCC. As you probably know, it has been revised several times. I have heard that it somewhat better now, and I will try to see it the next time I am in Charlotte.

Craig:

I wasn't too crazy about #1 and #3 either, but I had better (worse?) candidates for thosse spots.  My memory may fail me but isn't #12 that par three that is stuck down in the corner with a fence and the street on the right?  It looked to me like they ran out of property and only had 17 holes and had to find some place to stick one more hole.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Jim,

   You are correct about #12 it is the par 3 next to the road. I have always felt they have been better off building 27 holes on that property instead of trying to squeeze 36 holes on the site. The just opened the new nine this month and it has some really good holes, the opening hole is a 575 yard par 5 and number 8 is a 609 yard par 5 that plays into the wind, as well as a couple cool short par 4's and some nice par 3's.

[Jeff_McDowell]

TEPaul,

Excellent post.  I agree whole-heartdley with your idea of removing trees to provide options on sharp doglegs .  I've suggested it many times, but have always been shot down, so I'm careful about bring it up. I'm glad to hear there is someone out there with a similar opinion.

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